Pro players leaving AOE4 and Vortix's reason behind his decision

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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General micro to improve battle outcome
  • General unit management (moving melee units away from the line of scrimmage to reduce losses)
  • Overkill management for ranged units (you need to make sure the optimal number of ranged units are shift clicked in a fight to optimize their value)
  • Dodging mangonel shots (reduces damage received)
  • Kiting with ranged units (reduces damage received, allows archers to soft counter MAA… which annihilate them otherwise)
  • Garrison micro (allows villagers to repair defensive structure while under attack, or attack siege engines… can also apply to ranged units hopping in and out of siege ram to be nearly immune to ranged attacks)
  • Knight micro (maximize knight damage, allows them to attack twice by charging in a fight they are already engaged in)
  • Unit positioning (placing melee in front of ranged during fight, having spears face a cavalry charge to significantly reduce damage, using a small strip of pallisades to block enemy movement and protect vulnerable units (you do bring 3-4 villagers with your main attack force I hope))
  • Monk micro (this could be healing in the backline (applies mostly to delhi, but any civ could bring monks :wink:), relic conversion)
  • Siege unit micro (springald dueling, mango shoot and running, siege ram/tower(lol I know) garrison hopping (double reference, but same category))

*This list is not exhaustive, there is A LOT more I could include. I’m trying to keep this somewhat readable.

Micro unique to each civilization

(I’m limiting myself to one or two things per civ… it’s a lot to type out)

Abbasid:

  • monk conversion (no one uses this because it’s too micro intensive :exploding_head:)

Ayyubids:

  • UU mangonel forum censors original name(???)(swap between fire and normal shot)
  • camel raider (swap between ranged and melee based on fight)

Byzantines:

  • Limitanei (toggle shield, light micro but micro nevertheless)
  • Varangian Guard (beserk into melee micro)
  • Cataphract (trample, if you don’t or can’t manage this ability you might as well not train this unit… that’s how impactful this micro is)
  • Every other civs UU is available, so they juggle all of that with these as well.

China/Zhu xi:

  • Imperial officer (eco micro, but huge impact on their gameplay. It’s most of what china/zhuxi does in a match)

Delhi Sultanate:

  • Infantry wall building (this sounds like it isn’t micro, but ask yourself: am I doing everything I can with walls on delhi? The answer is… no. You can always make another wall with just one infantry. If not for resources, it’s because of the micro!)
  • Monk management (changing between training buildings, sacred sites, grabbing relics, healing army… a good delhi player is always shuffling these around)
  • Infantry sprint

English:

  • Longbowmen (volley, place palings)
  • MAA (Campfire, I’m putting anything in here that requires pressing a button and using it tactically… that’s micro)

French:

  • Arbalétrier (deploy pavise, stationary toggle… but anything other than an a-move constitutes micro. The bar is that low on micro)

HRE/OOTD:
I could put monk micro here… but this civ needs a tune up. Nothing they do requires unique micro. You really could just stack up regnitz and spam units after getting a 10 minute imp rush. Please fix

Japan:

  • Shinobi (disguise as villager, sabotage structure, bunshin are all micro abilities that MUST be used to have the full effect of this unit. Most players avoid because of the micro intensive nature of this unit)

Jeanne d’Arc:

  • Jeanne d’Arc (must I say more?)

Malians:

  • Musofadi warrior/gunner (stealth micro, sidenote this entire civ is based on hit and run tactics. You can eco boom with them, but in a typical scenario it involves picking fights in a specific way.)

Mongols:

  • Khan
  • Mangudai

Ottoman:

  • Sipahi (ability toggle vs ranged units/villagers. This will kill them if used against melee)
  • Mehter (toggle between bonuses, manage multiple in an army between groups to maximize effectiveness (no more than one aura applies in a group))

Rus:

  • Hunt micro
    Most of this civ is passive bonuses, not much to say here. I don’t play enough rus to speak to it.

Disclaimer: Please understand that the point of the above information is to show the micro that the game has. It is not about finding micro that is not present in all other RTSes, some things (such as stutter stepping and kiting) will be present in most RTS games. This is in response to claims of the game not having micro. It is not about saying that micro cannot be improved, or is in a satisfactory state.

Does AoE IV have less micro than an RTS like starcraft, stormgate, or even other Age titles like AoE 2 or AoM? I can see that, yea.

Does AoE IV have no micro, or even compared to all RTSES, less micro than average? I say no. Definitely no.

There are ways these things could be improved. It’s an area that many people have taken issue with! But to say that this game does not have micro because it is not like games like starcraft, or because of projectile physics, is a bit much for me.

Vortix is someone who comes from a blizzard rts background. His favorite game is WC3, where every unit has unique micro, and the unit movement/blocking is essential to gameplay. What AoE is in it’s most basic essence is not what he typically plays.

I would like to say that there are ways that this could be improved, and I would enjoy an AoE IV that has more gameplay focused on micro. I’m kind of surprised to see someone else say it, but we need more hero units like Jeanne d’Arc or the Khan to accomplish that.

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I’m personally taking a break (ragequit…); I left for a while to play a new expanison on another game, came back…and the camping is just no fun; I’m a delhi exlcusive player, so aggro/map control is the linear playstyle of delhi. Tried some FC Dehli and its meh, 2TC delhi and its meh, but opponent just sits in base and raids my exposed eco across the map. Map defense is harder than the guy that can stay home and raid; he only has the 1 thing to do. Why is in base eco able to compete with natural resources? whatever…

GG, I’ll check back with next patch, and watch some tournaments here and there.

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64

We will have to wait 2 months because there will be no big patch before the wololo
imagen

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In recent tournament matches like this one, 60 of the opponent’s villagers were eliminated but the game was decided by sacred sites…

So what kind of speculation are you going to get when watching a tournament? If a player’s successful attacks are not crucial to the game; 60 villagers of difference are wiped out and the game continues as if nothing happened!

imagen
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66

So it would take me a lot of time to go through the entire replay and break it down engagement by engagement, so this is all based off of the premise you gave and the screenshot posted.

Analysis of the game

Marinelord vs beasty qt, marinelord is up 2 games. The lead gained by marinelord means he is more likely to play defensively as beastyqt typically plays more aggressively when he is losing. (Keep in mind both players are relentless regardless of stratagem)

English vs ottoman, english has raided and killed 69 (nice) villagers and has map control at this point in the game. Ottoman has killed 10k more resources in unit value, this is despite (from raw numbers) having a villager lead and free units from their military schools. Ottoman has 4 relics, meaning they had map control in early/mid game.

Ottoman has 2 tc, english has 2tc (I think). The map is hill and dale, a more defensive map with three choke points surrounding base. It appears english has fully walled themselves into their base and has been playing defensively at home, but based off of their landmark placement has 2 aggressive keeps placed towards bulk of map resources made later into the game. Ottoman has trade landmark, and likely trade boomed throughout.

As a result of free siege from ottoman killing any archer mass, typical counterplay of ottoman vs english, english stayed in base. English was able to sustain itself and push out, this forced ottoman back. Ottoman had an established trade route, likely had that raided leading to higher villager losses.

This is a slow and defensive game. The main reason for that is english gameplay style and the power of ottoman siege. It is easy to hold against superior numbers when the siege count is high, and the longer marinelord can withstand the assault the more free siege he accumulates. It appears what really tipped the scales in this matchup was the food income from beasty. He led a relentless assault, and could sustain it with map control and english farm income.

In my opinion you could look at any match from hill and dale and find a similar outcome. These maps are intentionally designed to enable defensive play. The main thing you have to worry about is sacred sites and map gold, but it is easy to hold out with the three large forests on your side of the map, and the impassable terrain that segments your base into three easily defensible thirds.

I also think this is a strong showcase of how mindnumbingly boring english matchups are. They are most of the games on the ladder because they get the best defensive bonuses early in and are incentivized to turtle. Not unlike terran siege tank pushes, they slowly crawl across the map setting up hardened defensive positions until they overwhlem their opponents.

The sacred site victory condition is similar to the wonder condition. Both are ultimately hard to accomplish and are meant to break a stalemate. They are there to keep a game from going on indefinitely. 40 minute games, especially in a best of 9, are hard to watch. At least mechanics like those let the dominant player close it out.

In starcraft 2, a much faster paced game, the longest pro game on record is 4 hrs 10 minutes. This was a TvZ matchup on the largest available map, and it went on because both players used units that spawned or attacked without expending resources. You will never see this happen in age of empires because of wonders and sacred sites, starcraft 2 is victory through elimination only.

You will, however, see players use civ bonuses (like english farm gold, or ottoman military schools), infinite food farms, or safe trade to extend games beyond their normal lengths. I believe that’s what we’re seeing here.

If these kinds of games are not ideal for you, how would you prefer them to play out?

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I’m proposing this in different threads regarding the game, it’s not appropriate to compile it in this thread.
One aspect, for example, is that the boomer player runs out of food and is forced to expose himself to looking for more food or transitioning to farms, this is if the Non-capital Tc villagers are more expensive

By the way, a photo of the semi-final, 3Tc saved the game

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Its projectiles are super stupid for a medieval game.
Do you think every arrow always hits its target? No! For the sake of god no. That is the crucial point of any game. Do you think it would be fun if COD’s every shot promised a hit? No. Just like that AOEIV fails in that part. And Beastqt just said in his latest video that he doesn’t want more micro in the game because he cannot afford it! I promise you that. He won’t be able to win matches, because only he can do is boom and play a base-building simulator. That is it. If he tries AOE2 micro against any mediocre player, he will lose. He only thinks booming is a strategy. But the answer is no. Battles are tactical approaches that require fast decision-making and implementation. These tactical decisions lead to strategy when it is done accordingly. Without tactics, there is no strategy. Because strategy consists of tactical approaches. Beastqt doesn’t know anything about war. That illustrated a complete biased opinion where he pushes his opinion to the devs where only macro matters.

Also, why do you think AOE2 is more popular? Because of its micro! Battles are so fun and casters make a lot from it. AOEIV doesn’t have any fun moments when it comes to fighting. It is just a stalemated confrontation of two armies that does not require enough micro skill and both need to make more resources behind the walls. Do you really think it is fun? No!

About AOEIV’s release failure, it didn’t end there. It is still continuing, no communication, no roadmap, nothing. Just here and there something drops and that is it. When it drops, it is divided into 2 parts because of tourney qualification as the tourney organizers and devs cannot schedule their update and tourney.

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I think AoE 2 is rather more popular due to the sheer amount of content it received the past 25 years.

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specifically 25 years of history

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So this is already setting the tone for our conversation. It is bad, it is stupid, it is obviously wrong. I get it, you are strongly opposed to the game and its implementation in gameplay. I just can’t respond to this though because the comparison between AOE and COD are like apples and oranges. It is obvious that an RTS and FPS have very little to do with each other.

More than anything, you are taking me out of context to an EXTREME degree. I am trying to say that people, this includes you, are saying the game has no micro. I am saying it is not something you prove with projectile physics, that the conversation requires more depth:

There are ways these things could be improved. It’s an area that many people have taken issue with! But to say that this game does not have micro because it is not like games like starcraft, or because of projectile physics, is a bit much for me.

And Beastqt just said in his latest video that he doesn’t want more micro in the game because he cannot afford it! I promise you that. He won’t be able to win matches, because only he can do is boom and play a base-building simulator. That is it.

I’ve made it clear that the opinions of a pro player are their own. They do not represent mine, and I frequently disagree with their preferences. You’ve also stated in the past in this thread that you couldn’t care less about the opinions of pro players… seeing as most of the initial responses were of shock to someone suddenly caring about the opinion of pro players after they’ve been so frequently decried as the reason why balance is off in the game…

So allow me to make it clear to you: I am not saying pros want more micro, I am saying that I want more micro.

Edit: For those who do not know the video in question:

(Note: The video is 1 hr 24 minues in length… not something to be simplified to a few sentences…)

It’s very easy to tell a lie when referencing a video this long. Maybe the people you are speaking to don’t want to waste an hour of their time to fact check your statements. You can skip to 17 minutes in… he breaks down the importance of micro, and how easily someone could be beat by simple micro… That there is micro, and you need micro to play the game.

This ‘the sun rises in the west’ kind of discussion is just silly. It’s not hard to fact check it. What seems difficult is getting you to play fair and argue with reason, rather than having to debunk every third word.

It’s hardly worth the effort to talk about whether or not beastyqt has experienced war, and how that is apparently the metric you have determined is necessary to understand macro in an RTS

Beastqt doesn’t know anything about war. That illustrated a complete biased opinion where he pushes his opinion to the devs where only macro matters.

(seriously what the hell???)

Also, why do you think AOE2 is more popular?

I feel like this is very obvious. It is more familiar as a game, people have been playing it for over 20 years. Of course it has a strong fanbase, and a well established balance/gameplay loop. It also has much more content as a result of the time it has been active.

It’s also the only Age game that is more popular (when using steamcharts as a reference) than AoE IV. This may shift temporarily with AoM Retold right around the corner, but we’ll have to wait a year to say how long that will last.

About AOEIV’s release failure, it didn’t end there. It is still continuing, no communication, no roadmap, nothing. Just here and there something drops and that is it. When it drops, it is divided into 2 parts because of tourney qualification as the tourney organizers and devs cannot schedule their update and tourney.

We actually don’t fully understand the reasoning behind the decision. What you’ve outlined is an assumption, that while potentially accurate, is laced with your negative bias that tends towards a criticism of their competency.

To clear the air on that subject I’ll just quote the developers on this, considering they did communicate their reasoning found here: Age of Empires IV – Season Eight Update 11.0.782 - Age of Empires - World's Edge Studio

That wraps everything we have in store for you in this update. Be sure to keep your eyes peeled for our follow-up patch, which we’re targeting to release a few weeks after the Red Bull Wololo: El Reinado qualifiers have completed. We have lots more changes coming that we are excited to get into your hands. Here’s a sneak peek at what we have in store for our next patch:

  • A full rework of Rus’ bounty system.
  • The Deer Stones will grant access to a new unit ‘Khan’s Hunters’.
  • The House of Learning will receive some new and compelling technologies.
  • A mid-season map pool refresh.
  • Many more balance tweaks.

This patch will also see the return of our seasonal event: Map Monsters! You can expect to close out the summer (if you’re in the Northern hemisphere) with the return of some familiar and friendly monsters on land and sea, though we’ll be shaking things up a bit to make it easier to enjoy the fun.

We’re incredibly excited to share Season Eight with you, and we can’t wait to hear what you think. The team is eagerly buttoning up our next patch, but we’re always keeping an eye on your feedback. We’re also turning our attention to what’s next as we plan for our Season Nine release later this year, and even more exciting offerings in Spring 2025.

Based off of that alone they told us that they were targeting a release after the qualifiers. That could just as well have been so they could release a polished product. Not to mention that they are explicitly saying they will be monitoring feedback for things they could add that are not listed. It is also much more likely that they are planning the release of patches around the events that coincide with them… such as the map monsters event they explicitly mentioned. :thinking:

I know it’s not as much communication as people want, but:

no communication, no roadmap, nothing

Is an over exaggeration, if not completely dishonest.

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We had same thing by Starcraft2, where a lot of “pro” people did go back to Star craft Brood Wars.
They just were better at playing and winning by SC BW than by SC2.

Again, they dont play to have fun, they play to win.

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Why not? I think withholding a patch for the sake of two players is actively sabotaging the game. The honest truth is that this tournament does not matter that much. Had it been a full AoE4 tournament, then I could see it. But, as it stands, no.

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Villagers should die every 5 minutes, because as we know medieval villagers don’t have long life expectancies.

We shouldn’t have gold mines, most wealth was already concentrated in the coffers of weathly monarchs and the nobilty.

Domesticating animals should cause upkeep, because of how they need cleaning up after (especially considering sanitation is a pretty new concept, historically).

We should have a day-night cycle on all maps, and every single unit should suffer both increased chances to miss and a significant chance for friendly fire (even melee).

Should I go on? :sweat_smile:

(unironically, all maps should have a day-night cycle, but it should be a toggleable game option or map variant)

Why? What counts as a “full tournament”?

That said I feel you, because as a casual player, tournaments don’t matter to me too. But that doesn’t mean they don’t matter.

Objectively, it’s a matter of logistics. Tournaments and patches both have development schedules, windows of opportunity, and so on. How are we to know the specifics? How can we suspend our own preferences? Should we? I don’t know. I’m not sure we should, but then what does it matter?

It only matters if we’re trying to enforce that preference.

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Ok I hope that right now, AOE2 receives a radical patch and that its players compete in the Wololo tournament without adapting to the new meta (in addition to possible bugs) :wink: :wink:

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Hi. Everything you say (except passive and active abilities of certain units) is the basic micro in an RTS.

That’s why I bet for AoE4 to go in that line of adding interesting micro with active special abilities. We could call it strategic micro because you have to know when to activate that ability.

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I understand that things like kiting or moving damaged units out of a fight can be seen that way. However, things like knight micro, siege micro, and monk micro are all specific to the age series. Not all RTSes have those features, many don’t have a garrison feature either.

Importantly, AOE II does not have spear bracing or cavalry charging. Those two features make up a lot of micro in an average fight. It is debatable that IV has more mechanics to manage because of that, many of the discussions over the last 2 years speak to this.

My personal take on the matter is that few people go to bat for AOE IV. You can see this on the fandom page for age of empires (Micromanagement | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom). There is a plethora of information regarding micro for AOE 2 and 3… but 4 is completely empty.

For an example of the micro I described earlier, I have this video. It shows a scout, 3 spears, and 3 longbows (580 resources) killing a scout, 3 knights, and 2 horsemen (1030 resources):

The result is beasty losing 1 spear while killing all of the enemy units, a trade of 80 resources for 1030 resources… he then gets to harass villagers, idling them and depriving the opponent of gold.

Despite what many may say, micro is required to pull out these kinds of victories. It doesn’t matter too much to me if these things are in other games, the important thing is that it is in this game.

Bonus: A short from Vortix himself, showcasing water micro. This includes the vaunted arrow projectiles, though I have to admit this isn’t a scenario people describe enjoying very much…

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It is just one part of it. It is popular because lots of things work properly with each other.
But AOEIV is not, everything in every aspect is incomplete.

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I don’t think eco micro and overall eco decision making is what vortix complainend about. That’s where AoE4 (probs all AoE games) clearly shines compared to Blizzard RTS. Apart from that almost all micro options you mentioned have very little impact on the outcome of the game (naval micro being an outlier, mongol mangudai are probably the worst and least used unit in 1on1?) and it’s very likely more important where and when to place your defensive structures and what types units you build while building up your economy. Also, I think that the vast majority of points you have listed are just very basic micro RTS options. Interestingly I think you forgot to mention the unit in the game with either one of or the highest micro potential: French knights im combination with their healing ability. If AoE4 had so much army unit micro potential and if it was so crucial, we would see many more matches where a better player would end the game within 5-8 minutes. Since that is not the case i’d say micro has a very limited influence on the outcome of a match.

AoE4 has less micro than other AoE/AoM parts, WC3, SC2, SC1, Stormgate, Empire Earth, C&C. Do you know any other RTS games that were played or could have been played competitively? I mean why not just say that AoE4 is at the very end of RTS games with minor micro. I’ve played and loved (still do) Stronghold in singleplayer when I was a kid but how exactly would a competitive multiplayer for that game work out with so much focus on strong defensive structures and little micro? Imagine both players building up their castles for 40 minutes then telling eachother to attack for another 30 minutes because everyone has built the castle in order to defend it. Those games are excellent in PvE but don’t really make any sense in PvP imo.

I don’t come from blizzard RTS but from Empire Earth (I am playing SC2 though nowadays which also has plenty of flaws imo, but well that’s a different topic). In addition to food, wood, stone and gold it has a resource called iron. The maps are generated in a more randomly manner than AoE4 (which has ups and downs) and the game has a total of 15 different ages. There’s plenty of both eco and unit micro decisions to be made.

Here’s two Empire Earth matches with plenty of micro. What do you think of them?

Just look at how due to the faster pace the micro intensity on a basic unit such as the spearman in the first match goes up.

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That will ruin AOEIV. It will turn into Spells and Magic Empires.
You guys do not understand what is medieval setting and battle.
People want something interesting from battles, not some kind of effect.

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That kind of micro is the problem. It was stupid to charge and the way it was initiated and handled is boring.
That is why the viewers are so low and declining.
You have to look at the obvious problems.