Proposal for european architecture (houses)

[vanBladdeck]

since poland and denmark will be the next civs and we cant really expect many european maps to be added with the DLC (except maybe the missing ones like iceland, balearic islands, gibraltar)…

…i hope instead for some cosmetic changes to european architecture. Personally i would be completely fine with just making the civs house models more unique, since they are the most frequent and immersive… like its already the case w religious buildings.

Mediterranean:

portugese
spanish
italians
maltese - keeps current
ottoman

Western:

french - French Eclectic architecture(?)
british ← frequently people request it to have a special skin since its a unique type of house ingame
dutch - keeps current
(danish?)

Northern/Eastern:

germans - fachwerk/ timberframes; maybe by sending palatinate settlements
russians - keeps current
swedes - is already unique
(polish)
(danish?)

this would result in ~9 new skins (/18, since houses change skin w going age 4). Still a lot, but way less work than designing fully unique sets for each civ.

idk…
… if mexico/usa should also get new sets or if they share the same with spain/britain
… if italy and malta should share the same
… if denmark will be in the eastern (like swedes & germans) or western architectureset (like dutch)

what houses/styles do you think would be representative for your countries architecture? sadly i cant find the post anymore in wich someone posted cool ottoman houses.

what do u think?

• happy w just changing houses
• every civ should get fully unique sets (barracks, stables, forts…)
• no need for new skins
• other

[MUTYLATOR5553]

My dream would be unique Architecture Sets for each European civ, because they are the only ones in AoE 3 that share Architecture Sets - 3 sets for 11 civs…

But I would still be happy if three more (completely new) Architecture Sets for European civs were added to the game:

1. Central European - Dutch and Germans civs
2. Eastern European - Russians and Poles civs
3. Italian - Italians and Maltese civs

BTW. Current in-game Northern European Architecture Set should change the texture shade of buildings from yellow to red - more associated with Scandinavia.

Additionally, it would be nice if the Capitol building was visually based on the Parliament buildings for each civ.

[SirBarnzy1]

@vanBladdeck

british ← frequently people request it to have a special skin since its a unique type of house ingame

Absolutely. It fits into the Unique building/unit category which in all other cases has meant unique artwork.

There a slight issue I found with Manor Houses though and that’s clearly it’s the first British building type that Ensemble Studios stumbled upon rather one that fits better. So in my opinion they need a new name along with unique artwork.

What’s wrong with Manor Houses?
1. They were not homes for the masses, only lords and the elite - makes no sense to have vast amounts of them.
2. Manor Houses are medieval house types, often fortified like miniature castles, with some evena kg moats and towers.

3. During the AoE3 time span, they were ditched in favour of more modern Mansions and Chateau-style country houses, often designed as by architects rather than local *builders.
4. AoE3 cards like Terraced Houses (for commoners!) doesn’t make sense for a prestigious house.
5. The original Developers may have actually been thinking about a Country House or Country House Estate, which were actually much bigger and not ‘normal’ houses.

What do I propose?
Rename Manor House to Cottage and change artwork to a quintessential British Cottage. Artwork would initially depict a modest timber-framed thatched cottage with hedges and a well, evolving to a more established brick cottage with tiles, well and small wall & rose bush (plain hedges changing to a red rose bush makes a nice age-up narrative).

Why Cottages?
Because they were the house of the common folk, especially in rural areas. In fact the Manors and Country Houses would have cottages within the grounds for the live-in work force - whether within the UK or in colonies. The trait of Manor Houses goes hand in hand with them too - spawning the ‘workforce’. The ‘Terraced Houses’ shipment also thematically goes with it many Cottages were terraced, especially later on when businesses wanted on site ‘Model Villages’. Of the Devs were feeling fancy, the Terraced House shipment could change the cottage to a Victorian townhouse, however that’s not really that necessary if we have Cottages.

If you search on here for Cottages, there’s been some really great concept art mockups created by the talented @TheSquidEmpire.

[M00Z1LLA]

@SirBarnzy1

There a slight issue I found with Manor Houses though and that’s clearly it’s the first British building type that Ensemble Studios stumbled upon rather one that fits better.

This is completely false. They were very clearly intended to be manor houses right from the start. That’s precisely why they cost more and grant a villager. It’s an estate of the wealthy that comes with servants.

A higher cost house than comes with servants perfectly fits for a manor house and makes no sense for cottages.

@SirBarnzy1

makes no sense to have vast amounts of them.

You don’t get a “vast amount” of them, you get 20. Making them bigger and less numerous would be a huge nerf to Britain’s civ bonus, and it’s not like they were rare irl.

@SirBarnzy1

Manor Houses are medieval house types

@SirBarnzy1

ditched in favour of more modern Mansions and Chateau-style country houses

@SirBarnzy1

The original Developers may have actually been thinking about a Country House or Country House Estate, which were actually much bigger and not ‘normal’ houses.

They aren’t just medieval. Reminds me more of an estate like Downton Abbey than anything medieval. Manor houses are described as the functional antecedent of country houses. And if you look up pictures of “English Manors”, it’s all Victorian era mansions. Ultimately it’s a vague enough term to cover the housing of lords during the entirety of the game’s timeframe. Could it use a cooler skin? Of course, but the current name and function is very fitting and intentional.

@SirBarnzy1

AoE3 cards like Terraced Houses (for commoners!) doesn’t make sense for a prestigious house.

Correct, but it’s Terraced Houses that doesn’t fit. Recall that the original card was Estates which fits perfectly with Manors. It was only due to the bullshit renaming of Plantations that the card got renamed.

@SirBarnzy1

Manors and Country Houses would have cottages within the grounds for the live-in work force

That’s exactly what Manors already represent. Cottages would be a poor replacement because they should cheaper shabbier houses, not more expensive houses that give a bonus.

[SirBarnzy1]

@M00Z1LLA

@SirBarnzy1

makes no sense to have vast amounts of them.

You don’t get a “vast amount” of them, you get 20. Making them bigger and less numerous would be a huge nerf to Britain’s civ bonus, and it’s not like they were rare irl.

I wasn’t insinuating they that should be bigger and less numerous. ‘Vast amount’ whilst an obvious exaggeration, is still apt - Manor Houses were not the norm so even having a small group of them together would be mad (elites would rather be well away from each other with large tracts of land).

@M00Z1LLA

They aren’t just medieval. Reminds me more of an estate like Downton Abbey than anything medieval. Manor houses are described as the functional antecedent of country houses. And if you look up pictures of “English Manors”, it’s all Victorian era mansions. Ultimately it’s a vague enough term to cover the housing of lords during the entirety of the game’s timeframe. Could it use a cooler skin? Of course, but the current name and function is very fitting and intentional.

This is a rather picky and incorrect comment. They are medieval. Even that Wikipedia link (as flaky a source wiki is to refer to) tells us that Country Houses evolved from them. Grand and fancy houses were built instead as the elite didn’t need to rule from fortified medieval Manors as central governments strengthened.

Looking up English Manors will give you lots of Victorian Country House results, sure, but do you know why? The Victorian Era included a Romanticism revival where it was on trend to give your 19th century Country House a medieval-inspired suffix so you’ll find lots of insert name Manor or insert name Hall. They’re just personalisations. ‘Manor’ along with ‘Halls’ and even ‘Abbeys’ became fashionable medieval names to attach to your house. In my little region of the UK, there’s Anglesey Abbey (built long after the priory was demolished) which is clearly not an abbey, but I also know of a 15th century typical medieval Manor House which has a moat, crenellations and is vastly different.

It’s generally those outside Europe (especially Americans) that refer to any Country House as Manors.

A Galleon can be called the Golden Hind but we don’t call all Galleons ‘Golden Hinds’.

@M00Z1LLA

Correct, but it’s Terraced Houses that doesn’t fit. Recall that the original card was Estates which fits perfectly with Manors. It was only due to the bullshit renaming of Plantations that the card got renamed.

With the current naming, true, Terraced Houses is a weird downgrade in house class if we’re talking Manor Houses. Estates in Country House terminology just ment the house, the grounds, the cottages and the money-making tennant farmlands. Anyway, Cottages can be used in either Estates or Terraced House context.

@M00Z1LLA

That’s exactly what Manors already represent. Cottages would be a poor replacement because they should cheaper shabbier houses, not more expensive houses that give a bonus.

This is a moot point. Cottages popping up around your settlement with their occupants out and ready to work rather than a settlement of housing made up of nothing but old (and strangely common house-looking) Manor Houses to rule the peons seems more appealing to me, at least. Expense means more about balance than theme - otherwise Manor Houses would probably be wanting more than 140 planks of wood…

[SirBarnzy1]

@vanBladdeck

idk…
… if mexico/usa should also get new sets or if they share the same with spain/britain

I think it would neat if they did. Looking back at Rise of Nations, the USA got (iirc) a fitting colonial New England architecture for the the AoE3-equivalent ages. Wooden, ‘Saltbox’ style houses would look much nicer for the US rather than the more European-style of current house. Meeting House is the kinda aesthetic I think could be applied to the US as a whole.

Revolt US could share this though on the fence with Canada (they were initially more French and preferred wattle and daub timber frames over wooden houses).

[Simsimix]

USA needs this style

[M00Z1LLA]

@SirBarnzy1

I wasn’t insinuating they that should be bigger and less numerous. ‘Vast amount’ whilst an obvious exaggeration, is still apt - Manor Houses were not the norm so even having a small group of them together would be mad

Fair enough, don’t need to fix “vast amounts” if you get rid of them entirely. I would argue manors were in fact the norm. In some parts of the countryside they probably did contain most of the population.

All the issues you have with them could be solved by updating the model to a fancier house with some hedges and grounds around it.

@SirBarnzy1

This is a rather picky and incorrect comment. They are medieval. Even that Wikipedia link (as flaky a source wiki is to refer to) tells us that Country Houses evolved from them. Grand and fancy houses were built instead as the elite didn’t need to rule from fortified medieval Manors as central governments strengthened.

Those grand and fancy houses are still manors, and to say they aren’t is nitpicky. Nobility has always had county estates, from the Roman villas, through feudalism to the Victorian manors. Saying Victorian estates are not manors is like saying a modern Italian villa is not a real villa because true villas are from the Roman era.

@SirBarnzy1

‘Manor’ along with ‘Halls’ and even ‘Abbeys’ became fashionable medieval names to attach to your house.

They’re called that because they literally were abbeys, manors, or halls when they were founded. When the monasteries were dissolved, many became the estates of nobles. Sure, later on some may have added names due to trends, but that’s not where it originated.

@SirBarnzy1

refer to any Country House as Manors

And rightly so, both are just a kind of estate.

@SirBarnzy1

Cottages popping up around your settlement with their occupants out and ready to work rather than a settlement of housing made up of nothing but old (and strangely common house-looking) Manor Houses to rule the peons seems more appealing to me

Cottages are a seasonally inhabited shack. Why would that cost considerably more and provide more benefit than a standard house available to the other Europeans? What is uniquely British about cottages that would justify that as a unique building and their civ bonus?

Manors are stereotypically British, fit perfectly with their current function of providing a servant workforce when built, and easily justify a higher cost. They aren’t some misstep from the original devs, they were very intentionally picked and fit with their bonus. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

Your only justified complaint is they don’t look fancy enough to be manors and can be placed too close together. There’s totally room for improvement there with an updated model with grounds and hedges around a fancier house. But totally scrapping manors for cottages really misses the mark.

[GwentMaster2163]

With more and more European and American civilizations, the three architectural styles of the original version of the game will soon be applied to a total of 15 civilizations.

Among them, Mediterranean-style architecture was applied to six civilizations, which crossed races, religions and even two continents. The “Western European” style was also applied to four civilizations, also across the Atlantic.

In addition, if nothing else, Poland and Denmark will adopt the “Eastern European” style architecture originally designed for Germany and Russia, so that five civilizations will share the architecture.

I’m Asian, and I’m not so sensitive to the differences in architectural styles across Europe. If I were a European, I would be surprised to see the same buildings used in Italy, Ottoman and Mexico.

[Aisharp]

I think a retexture for the European building is enough. Take the Northern European architecture (German, Sweden, and Russian) for example, give the current texture exclusive to Russian. Then change German wood texture to be more whitish in color, and the roof more blacker. Sweden texture can be changed to be similar like Torp, redder wood and more brownish orange roof. Unique model can be given to select few important building like Church, Capitol, Fort, and/or TC.

[TheSquidEmpire]

I agree with you,
I think while it would be amazing to get custom sets for all the civs it’s unrealistic to even imagine it because of the work it would require, but a recolour of exisiting sets for different teams could go a huge way to making them look more unique!

I think the best case would be if we could split the mediterranean/iberian architecture set. Especially if we could get unique Ottoman architecture.

I’ve also straight up never been a fan of the “western euro” set used by the French, British, Dutch, and US. The style of buildings never really felt right to me, with the use of half-timbering on brown brick and wood walls. I never felt that set was appropriate for the time period or the civs that used it. I would have liked to see something more like whitewashed walls with half-timbering in the early ages leading to white stone and dark roofs later (like in my cottage concept).
The actual western euro building architecture is also offputting. Weird choices like the half-timbered and gabled factory and the bizarre looking capital building. I wonder what they based those on.

[Dumuzi]

@vanBladdeck

maltese - keeps current

Malta actually has a pretty unique style of architecture. I’d rather Spain and/or Portugal keep the default Mediterranean style.

See those colorful balconies? they’re called “Gallarija” and they date from the time period of aoe3. Maybe there could be tiny versions of them on the Maltese houses in-game.

[vanBladdeck]

@TheSquidEmpire

The style of buildings never really felt right to me, with the use of half-timbering on brown brick and wood walls. I never felt that set was appropriate for the time period or the civs that used it.

Yeah, it always bothered me aswell. I mean half-timbering was also a thing in those places, but never to an extend like in germany. Instead the german civ gets some wooden houses - which are not like anything i’ve ever seen in my country at all.

I’d love to see houses that are somewhat consistent in style to their corresponding churches. especially for france and the netherlands

Btw: could you link your cottage concept? Sounds very interessting

[MonsieurMoustache]

New architecture styles for european civs is something I’ve wanted for a long time.
I’m not expecting every civ to have a new one, just at most 2-3 civs per style

[SirBarnzy1]

@M00Z1LLA

Fair enough, don’t need to fix “vast amounts” if you get rid of them entirely. I would argue manors were in fact the norm. In some parts of the countryside they probably did contain most of the population.

All the issues you have with them could be solved by updating the model to a fancier house with some hedges and grounds around it.

Of course, ultimately I just want a unique skin or model, there’s no beating around the bush for that . I’ve just merely suggested that a British Cottage is an entirely viable and arguably better fit as thematically it makes more sense that your new and bustling settlement has the ‘go-to’ housing for its Settlers/Villagers. In some part of the countryside feudal manors most certainly did, however later on a Country House’s estate would also a number of Cottages on it, with the occupants working the land, but in addition the commonfolk would live in bigger numbers in the villages and towns (especially in the later centuries). Those living/working inside a Manor/Country House would have been Service - i.e Footmen, Butlers, Hall Boys, Maids etc… not really the ilk to be building your economy.

@M00Z1LLA

Cottages are a seasonally inhabited shack. Why would that cost considerably more and provide more benefit than a standard house available to the other Europeans? What is uniquely British about cottages that would justify that as a unique building and their civ bonus?

Some countries on the European mainland have seasonal cottages (often Scandinavian countries) however British cottage are distinctly different to those (and certainly not shacks!). A typical British/English cottage was a home throughout and despite wikipedia’s mention of a Victorian businessman’s comment on their quality, many constructed though the entirety of AOE3’s time frame still exist today (and examples from before that span). They existed as locally made houses for the local work forces, whether in villages, towns or at a country Estate. During the industrial revolution there were even cottages for specific groups of workforces (such as miners & weavers) so they never died out, plus during the Romantic movment, the wealthy again being fascinated with the old started building country houses designed to resemble large cottages (Cottages ornés).

@M00Z1LLA

They’re called that because they literally were abbeys, manors, or halls when they were founded. When the monasteries were dissolved, many became the estates of nobles. Sure, later on some may have added names due to trends, but that’s not where it originated.

The Country Houses constructed during the AOE3 timespan were mostly ‘new’, demolishing the previous landmark and building often literally on top. When the dissoultion took place, Henry VIII destroyed the majority of abbies/priories. Of course some actual Manors/Halls/Priory continued to exist, however they were modifed extensively to become Country Houses - a different entity and far more decadent (another example - this is
not an Abbey!). The origins of the names are in most cases homages to the original buildings, with a much smaller amount being true Manor Houses (even then, many of those were refered to as insert name Hall). Again, I’m speaking as a British person with the historic British terminolgy here. It’s only in modern times, many people (again, mostly outside the UK/Europe) refer to a country house as a Manor or as an Estate (a bugbear of mine as the Estate is the whole land rather than structure).

@M00Z1LLA

Your only justified complaint is they don’t look fancy enough to be manors and can be placed too close together. There’s totally room for improvement there with an updated model with grounds and hedges around a fancier house. But totally scrapping manors for cottages really misses the mark.

At the end of the day, it’s a Unique Building that has no unique artwork/textures - that’s my actual complaint.
I’ve just supplied a completely valid counterpoint that if the Devs do give a nice, fitting aesthetic to the Manor House it may actually reinforce the weirdness that your colony/settlement is made up entirely of the grand houses of the elite, whereas in reality, the quintessential British cottage makes more sense thematically.

I’m certainly not being precious about it as I’m essentially happy as long as they just give the unique houses a new look in line with other unique buildings. There’s obviously a difference in terminologies in use here, with mine taken from the British view on Cottages and Country Houses/Manor Houses/‘Stately Houses’/etc and their history, so it’s interesting to hear a different take. I think we can both agree that a graphic change for something meant to be unique is in order nevertheless!

[SirBarnzy1]

@vanBladdeck

Yeah, it always bothered me aswell. I mean half-timbering was also a thing in those places, but never to an extend like in germany. Instead the german civ gets some wooden houses - which are not like anything i’ve ever seen in my country at all.

I’d love to see houses that are somewhat consistent in style to their corresponding churches. especially for france and the netherlands

Btw: could you link your cottage concept? Sounds very interessting

Yeah, we’re kinda at a crossroads for the Euros and their art styles with the theme of the game.

Originally it was all about colonialism, which actually meant the current line-up of Euro archecture being incredibly out of places in the Americas, however the scope has changed signicantly to a much bigger area.
Euro building look more fitting on Euro maps but will always seem a little out of place with your timbered frame buildings in Asia or Africa for example. Technically and historically some Euro settlements did stick with their motherland’s styles in the more enclave’y places and during the 19th century certain buildings (like factories and warehouses) around the world all started to look a little similar (take Yokohama and its dockside warehouses for example).

In a super ideal set up where resources are no object all civs would have map-dependant art styles where they historically adapted to the climate with building techniques, however we’ll never ever see that as you may as well start a new game from the ground up with that in mind

Having said that, the German houses have always looked out of place, though I don’t know what the best answer is for that.

[MUTYLATOR5553]

@SirBarnzy1

Having said that, the German houses have always looked out of place, though I don’t know what the best answer is for that.

German architecture should be “brick”. I think the Northern European Architecture Set is the most disappointing of all the European Architecture Sets. It would probably suit Scandinavian civs best after changing the colors of the building textures from yellow to red. These straw roofs are out of place - they only fit PLC and Russians civs (but both of these civs should have log buildings).

Here is a granary from the 18th century located in Masovia (Poland). The roof is obviously not original.

[vanBladdeck]

@SirBarnzy1

Having said that, the German houses have always looked out of place, though I don’t know what the best answer is for that.

my favorite would be houses like those:

pro:

• most common in central germany, but also abbundant in all other parts, thereby being a good representation instead of more regional styles
• also used by german colonists/immigrants in the americas, other parts of europa, africa and even tsingtao (in china)
• colorfull frames → easy way to show playercolor (already the case ingame. but this time pls no ugly yellow walls)

contra:

• complexity of framework needs to be reduced to fit smaller ingame 3D-model

i think the german immigrants in WOL also use houses like this… but its a long time since i played the mod.

[SirBarnzy1]

Would the 'Western Europe’s set fit better for the Germans? At the very least it’s timberframed. Maybe when the Polish appear they could have the central Europe models and Germans could have Western (again probably not a perfect fit).

I love those German houses in the images.

We have a similar aesthetic in some of our towns in the UK

.
(Chester, UK)

As you can see, current western Europe houses are very broad and are not that close to the real things at all, however they just seem to be kinda more accurate than the current German ones.

[MUTYLATOR5553]

@SirBarnzy1

Would the 'Western Europe’s set fit better for the Germans? At the very least it’s timberframed. Maybe when the Polish appear they could have the central Europe models and Germans could have Western (again probably not a perfect fit).

Polish and Russians civs should receive a completely new Architecture Set because none of the ones already in the game fit them.

As for the Germans civ, they should get a completely new Architecture Set and could share it with the Dutch civ.