Proposals of New Asian Native Tribes

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
22

But I have.

Thank you for correcting me about what kind of shrines they are, but that doesn’t change the fact shrines shouldn’t work as houses.

If you focus too much on preserving the meta, then there’ll be no real fix for the stereotypes, given the current meta for them is based on these stereotypes.

In my opinion, the community plaza is just as bad as the fire pit. It should have been removed completely, not just reskinned. The dances/ceremonies feel more like god powers from Age of Mythology, they don’t belong in a more historically-based game.

Edit: personally I’d say you can keep the mechanic of attracting animals, maybe even make them still add population space, but add a new building as the main “source” of population space (which is where my suggestion of villages/standalone houses would come in).

I think some people complain about Japanese being able to just spam shrines all over the map, so this could be a way of decreasing the build limit for shrines without increasing the population space they give.

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I respect this point of view, as long as you realize that this is not just reworking an existing civilization, but is actually equivalent to creating a new civilization.
For me, just renaming the current Shrine to “Ie” to get away from the religious context is already a big improvement, although I can accept the current Shrines.

interesting…

I’m assuming Ie costs 50 wood and just provides 10 population. And the shrine costs 100 wood if its build limit is still 20, and it only provides trickles, and animals can improve the trickles.

Maybe the shrine could get fences and torii gates to make it a bit nicer and make it have a larger area, which would allow more side lengths for more animals to stop at once the build limit is set below 20.

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Personally I think just reskinning it would bring new problems: I can understand why animals would gather around shrines: humans put offerings on those, including food for animals. But why would shy animals like deer gather around populated houses? Again, shrines aren’t necessarily houses.

I know not everything in the game has to make logical sense, but this would look weird either way. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I’d be all for that. Shrines should be fewer in number, but also more powerful and distinct from houses.

I agree, that’s why I suggested that be the role of a Kannushi healer unit instead.

Whether it’s an Iron Cap Prince or simply a General, either would be fine with me. The Prince title would just be more in line with the Ras or Daimyo and not so much conflicting with the American Generals.

“Armed Caravan Leader” is just not a good name or a particularly good theme. Any of the options based on generals or nobility would also be fine training some kind of guard unit to bolster their strength. And I only suggested giving the Asians the respawn mechanic because it could be a good way to balance Daimyos as heroes. The other Asians wouldn’t necessarily need that but it would be more consistent. And Asians using the ransom mechanic is not “unnecessary copying”, especially when they already copy the respawn method of the European heroes.

Emir just gives it a bit more continuity with other potential Muslim civs. Raja or Zamindar would also be fine as names for the hero. Raja might actually be better as it could also be used for other South Asian civs like Marathas, Mysoreans, Burmese, or Siamese.

26

Have you ever been to Nara Park?
I even based on this to suggest that the Japanese sacred animal should be herdable deer rather than Dutch goats.

When heroes can cause effective damage to Kannushi, then they are easy to target and die, making the economy of this civilization terrible.
When heroes can’t cause effective damage to Kannushi, then they can’t be stopped by the opponent, thus gaining an overly strong economy.

Obviously it is difficult to balance, even if there is a way, I don’t think it should be designed like this.
As long as Daimyo is not a starting hero, why not simply allow Japanese explorers/cartographers to build Shrines (whether or not the Shrines are separated from Houses)? They came from low-ranking samurai and commoners, having no problem building shrines. I’d rather introduce Monks who don’t have great combat power as ordinary healers at the Monastery, and the Shinto stuff is only a part of the economy and has nothing to do with healers.

When you suggested Emir as the name of a unit other than Hausa, I had thought you don’t mind that.

The biggest problem with Prince is that it exists like Wonders. When it’s somewhat unreasonable to rule the town in any other Qing territory outside of its home city, let alone Americas, Africa and Europe?

Don’t like General, you can choose Viceroy.

The financial industry and trade industry of the Qing Dynasty were almost the most developed in the thousands of years of imperial China. With the silver standard in economic policy, a large amount of silver in the world flowed into China. Merchants with the same place of origin established merchant guilds (“Shāngbāng”, the nature is not the same as European guilds) that could affect the economy of the entire empire, and used the wealth they earned to develop towns in their hometowns.

On the other hand, since the developments of the Silk Road and the Tea Horse Road, caravans have been an important part of the imperial economy. In the vast empire with a population of 400 million people and many neighboring states, Chinese merchants must carry a large amount of goods for long-distance travel through mountains, rivers, steppes and desserts. The way out of the big cities was not safe, natural disasters, wild beasts, outlaws, and barbarians are common. Since ancient times, the guilds had organized private armed forces to escort caravans, and there are also some agencies that are professionally hired to escort caravans.

You might think that something like these might have similar existence in other countries around the world. But the difference is that the Chinese folk romanticize such armed forces. Those escorts are used as themes in literary works and entertainment works, such as wuxia novels and dramas. For the Chinese civilization in the game, they will not be a strange existence, at least in the eyes of Chinese-speaking players. They’re great for getting some economy-related effects like having trickles, etc.

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I have heard of Nara Park, yes, but it’s a single place, that has existed for ages. The shrine is a generic building you can build anywhere, so there’s no reason why it’d be based on a specific building like wonders are.

Not to mention, as you said, the deer are domesticated. The animals you attract with shrines aren’t.

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The concept of Shinto is actually the original religious concept reshaped by the Japanese government during the Meiji period Of course, it is also possible to treat them as Shinto in advance. Can add units such as Attendants and metsuke to this building

31

You’re making a bigger deal out of this than it is.

If a Kannushi had the same stats as a Priest it would be only slightly easier to kill than a Sohei Archer (200hp vs 250hp). It would be killable, but age 1 fights are slow, and if you brought your Daimyo into the fight that could be enough to drive them off even if it slows you down. They also carried around a Shaku which could justify a slightly higher melee attack to further discourage harassment.

Healers can also garrison in buildings so that is an option to keep them safe even if they’re idled.

If your Kannushi was killed, Villagers are still capable of building Shrines, and more Kannushi could be trained from existing Shrines.

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Daimyo shouldn’t be the starting hero unit.

Shinto priests rarely, if ever, take part in warfare, which is very different from Japanese Buddhism. The Japanese Buddhist monks, if not monk warriors, often served as spiritual sustenance and philosophical mentors to samurais and soldiers, but Shinto priests seem to have never had such an important role. What they do is mainly purely social and economical activities such as managing and cleaning the shrines, helping people pray to heaven and ancestors for peace, being healthy, happy marriage and good harvests. Making them exist as an accessible unit in the game is such an aggressive mean of presentation that makes me feel weird, not to mention the so-called higher melee attack.

Btw, Shinto Grand Shrine is appropriate as a minor civ. It’s just that its native warrior unit should better be Kunoichi. Kunoichi are not Shinto priests, but their origins were tied to Shinto shrines. Of course when the frame scales down from the whole of Japanese culture and society to just Shintoism, the Shinto priest or priestess like Kannushi or Miko as unit is also less weird.

This is exactly why I said “they are easy to target and die, making the economy of this civilization terrible.”

Once the villagers have to stay away from the base to build a shrine, it is not only dangerous but also causes very large economic losses, which can be said to be very bad for this early civilization with a fragile economy. This is the reason of having at least two starting heroes who can build shrines, and my Japanese explorer/cartographer concept respects and remains this point.

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It makes by far the most sense for this to be the hero.

You’re greatly exaggerating this. I’m saying they carry a stick so they should be able to hit harder than a Priest punches. A Priest’s attack is 5 so slightly higher would be like 6 or 7 which is still much less than a Villager.

Again, you’re greatly exaggerating. Japan hardly has to leave their base otherwise so having 1 Villager walk around slightly isn’t much worse than another civ’s Villagers walking to distant hunts. And you could avoid any lost Villager time by training more Kannushi. Combine this with reducing the number of Shrines needed, and Japan might actually be better off with a system like this.

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@UpmostRook9474 honestly, most of what you’re saying sounds like “the Asian civs are poorly designed but that’s exactly why they shouldn’t be reworked.”
I’m still of the opinion simple reskins would do nothing to fix the problems of the Asian civilizations.

Also, if the current heroes are moved to holy sites, I think maybe Brahmins should be reakinned/renamed for that as well, since I’ve been told they weren’t combatants.

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Most of the monks wouldn’t make sense in holy sites. There are already Sohei Naginata so Sohei Archers would be redundant. Brahmins make zero sense as a unit anywhere.

The exception would be the Shaolin Monk which would make more sense in the Shaolin Temple than Rattan Shields do.

Rattan Shields could be made a mercenary styled after the Tiger Warriors.
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The Shaolin Temple could get a heavy infantry monk unit with a Monk’s Spade.
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The Chinese hero could be a Prince or General, and the healer could be a Confucian Scholar.
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You just want all Asian starting heroes have to have a noble status, but I don’t think there’s a need for that.

Using Japanese explorers and cartographers such as Mogami Tokunai, Inō Tadataka, and Mamiya Rinzō as the starting heroes not only improve the historical accuracy, effectively eliminates stereotypes, but also respects the existing gameplay. This is the indeed most sense so far.

The Daimyo should continue to maintain its great power and functionality, training units and providing auras. It can be used as a hero, basically up to 1, and needs to be obtained through an Age advance option (such as the Shogunate or a new option that replaces it), whether it requires a ransom or rebirth when defeated.

You didn’t get what I said. The problem is not statistics.

In Japanese society, the difference between Buddhism and Shintoism is definitely not just two different religions. They have different importance and functions in different fields of society. In China, Buddhism and Taoism have a similar relationship.

Buddhist concepts of reincarnation, karma, and life and death appealed to Samurais and war-torn people. Different from Buddhist monks, Shinto priests are basically have nothing to do with wars or battles, more related to the daily affairs of people’s livelihood. Having Shinto priests on the front line as a unit is unnecessary design. With the same concept, I would also say that the Chinese civ does not need Taoist priests who go to the front line. Army leaders were often accompanied by Buddhist monks rather than Shinto or Taoist figures.

We can introduce ordinary Hinduist and Buddhist Monks to be healer units for the Asian civs at Monasteries. It would make more sense to use them to heal military. No need to be able to train Shinto units for the Japanese civ itself, as building a large number of Shrines is already a good representation of the importance and function of Shinto in Japanese society in my opinion. People pray for a good harvest at shrines, which is effectively represented by the trickle of the Shrines. And people ask the monks in the monastery for the way of peace of mind, which is the meaning of Buddhist monks as healers.

There is no cost for hunting, but there is for building shrines.
Hunting obtains resources much faster than shrines provide resources.
A group of animals can be eaten for a while, but after building 2 shrines, you have to go further to the other groups of animals.

You can’t convince me this is decent design. Even if such a design could be balanced, there is absolutely no need to adopt it.

Training healers in the first 10 minutes of the game is basically a waste and hurts the economy badly.

The design in the game needs to be improved, but a way that respects the existing gameplay is definitely the first choice.
If renaming or reskin can already improve to a considerable improvement, I don’t think it is necessary to pursue 100% rework.

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37

Not necessarily, it’s just that there are already pseudo-hero units in the Daimyo and Mansabdar that don’t really make sense in their current position and would be better represented as actual heroes.

I can see your point if your goal is to keep gameplay changes to the absolute minimum. But I don’t think that’s necessary or desirable. At least for Japan, the issues with the civ run far deeper than just a poorly themed hero. Shrines that double as houses and deny hunts to your allies and enemies are supremely annoying. So are Daimyos that can just dump 10 mortars into the back of your base.

“Armed Caravan Leader” and “Cartographer” are also just poor names and can be described by a more succinct and accurate term; Explorer. Thematically, it doesn’t make sense for a Japanese Explorer to be building Shrines so it’s not like this is the best way to preserve gameplay either.

No one is saying they should be a frontline unit except you, and I never once mentioned Taoist priests so I don’t know why you’re bringing that up. If you’re meaning that as a healer, they would have a frontline role, then that’s not even true of most healers in the game. Only Missionaries, Abuns, and Griots are at all useful in battles. The other healers can only heal units out of battle and don’t provide any other bonuses to make them worth it to send them to the front.

As I stated in my original post, the primary role of a Kannushi would be to scout and build Shrines and then act as a gatherer at those Shrines once they had all been built. The only time they might see combat is if they’re being hunted down by an enemy Explorer. Since they often carry a baton, it would be justified to give them slightly more attack than the pitiful strength of a Priest to make attacking them early on more costly.

There absolutely is a cost to hunting. The travel time of Villagers is time not gathering, and moving out to far away hunts is much riskier than sitting in your base gathering from orchards. Even if your Shrines get burned down, they can be rebuilt more quickly than Villagers can. They also deny hunts while they are still up and never run out. Shrines provide population room, so if you subtract the 100 wood every other civ would need to spend otherwise, their cost is actually non-existent.

If they contribute to your economy then they are not a hindrance. For example, the payback period for an Abun is less than 3 minutes so that’s hardly a waste.

You may not like it, but ideally, I’d like to see a system more like this:

  • Japan starts with a Daimyo hero that can’t build Shrines and a Kannushi healer that can
  • Shrine build limit reduced to 16, but gatherer limit increased to 5
  • Shrines no longer provide population so Japan must construct houses
    • Heavenly Kami could be buffed to also discount Houses (which are already discounted by Portuguese allies)
  • Shrines can train Kannushi with a build limit of ~10
  • Kannushi can gather from Shrines at a much higher rate than animals
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There’s always at least one person that is unhappy with meta changes, but I noticed Asian civs are the ones people get the most defensive about. Even the devs have left them pretty much untouched despite all the change they do need.

They’re the worst designed civs in the game by far, but people don’t want them to be improved because meta or nostalgia or whatever else. Even the changes to native american civs weren’t so poorly received.

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A civilization has many problems, but it does not mean that the way to improve each problem has to be completely changed. Just because you think problem A needs a big adjustment doesn’t mean that problem B needs to do the same.

They were indeed historically cartographers and caravan leaders. “Poor” is just your opinion, but they’re still the right terms.

When people reclaim a new place, the first buildings they build are often religious buildings. There is no problem at all with Shrines built by explorer-like units especially when Explorers can build Forts and Generals can build Trading Posts.

I mention Taoism because I try to explain the different roles, functions and meanings of each religion in society. If you know Taoism, you can also imagine what Shintoism is like. But obviously I didn’t explain it very well. It seems my expressiveness is not strong enough to state this difference in different cultures. This frustrates me. :cry:

I mention frontline since the healer unit is actually a military unit and usually is used to heal the soldiers. This represents those religious figures who serve the military in the real world. In Japan (as well as China) in the past, this roles were often Buddhist monks. The teachings of Buddhism are particularly attractive to those on the battlefield where the life and death are impermanent.

I wouldn’t say your design for Kannushi to be a healer is “wrong”, but I don’t think Kannushi should replace Buddhist monks as a healer unit that can heal military units, when the civ also have a Buddhist Monastery (which should be reworked to be something like an equivalent to the Church rather than a mercenary building).

If you want the Kannushi so much as a trainable unit for the civ, it’s better (only) to do with economy. However, the Shrines that can be built in large numbers and generate trickles are pretty decent representations of that in themselves. When the Japanese can have sacred animals, they also don’t need human units that can gather at Shrines. If you just need a unit that builds a shrine, just choose a figure to be the starting heroes who is culturally able to build shrines, but you only stick to the daimyo for the starting hero.

Do you have to imagine, if the Japanese Sohei Archers are completely immobile, you can only build Shrines by Villagers, unless you gather 150 coins to pay for being able to control one of the Sohei Archers?

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Why did the japanese hero stop being called Ikko Ikki in the first place?

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Because the Ikko Ikki were enemies of Tokugawa, the leader of the civ… Anyway, here’s Garibaldi leading some Papal Zouaves!
It’s a dumb excuse, but it’s the only one that I’ve heard people giving.

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There is a pirate native in the unknown map native embassies. That’s great! We could also make such kind of natives for Asia (i.e. not necessarily a people or a religion, but a collection of practitioners of a certain activity).
I’m trying to make their names sound in-line with the holy sites while most of them are not.

Ninjutsu Dojo

Unit:
Shinobi: native version of the consulate unit

Tech:
Hattori Ninja Corps: ship a Ninja (mercenary) for every xxx minutes passed.
Koga-ryu: stealth units deal +50% damage the first time it attacks from stealth mode; stealth units +25% speed in stealth mode.
Intelligence Network: reveal a small LOS around all buildings, treasures and mines for a short time.

Wokou Hideout

Unit:
Wokou Raider: shock infantry

Tech:
Wokou Outlaws: ship a random batch of East Asian outlaws.
Jiajing Raids: warships +33% damage to buildings; receive coin equivalent to 20% of the original resource cost of the destroyed buildings.
Murakami Suigun: ship a Wokou Junk loaded with a Ronin and a Wokou Ronin.
Smuggling Port: each Trading Post and Port decrease the resource exchange rate by 15%.

Shugendo Monastery

Unit:
Yamabushi: native version of the consulate unit.

Tech:
Waterfall Meditation: villagers and healers +10% gather rate, +25% hp, but -10% speed; healers +50% healing rate.
Mountain Hermit: ship a Monastery Wagon (can convert into a Monastery, which can train mercenaries but does not have improvement techs for non-Asians; Monastery limit +1); Monasteries now trickle wood.
Gongen: Yamabushi +15% hp; Yamabushi can heal.

Ming Loyalist Court

Unit:
Sanyanchong: skirmisher that fires three low-damage shots simultaneously.

Tech:
Village Encampment: ship 2 Village Wagons and 1 Outpost Wagon.
Kingdom of Tungning: allow Iron Trooper to be trained at the Trading Post; ranged infantry +10% hp.
Hongyipao: ship 2 cannoneers and 1 falconet for every Town Center.
Anti-Qing Resistance: defensive buildings can repair for free; defensive buildings +20% hp.

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I think Assassins would fit perfectly into this concept - for Levant and Middle East maps.