Pup patch: Not so many greedy 2. TC anymore?

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Current pup patch (TC: +50 stone, +30s build time, Keep +40s build time)

  • Give aggressive civs the possibility to deny / delay the 2. TC
  • It gives them a bigger chance of success even after the 2. TC stays

Status Quo:

  • The current meta favors the defensive player
  • Civs that are build around aggressive playstyle, suffer to apply pressure
  • Booming is also turtling at the same time
  • Defensive structures have no real counterplay

Denying or Delaying a 2. TC:

I like that this could be an option now! I know from my games when both players execute their builds correctly, there where just some seconds missing to actually apply damage on the player that want to build his 2. TC, usually they can hop in the TC in time. It could be enough now to punish it.

This could open up now one way to punish it, be on point with your BO and directly move towards your opponent asap.
I like that change, I hope it will be a big enough time window to punish it.
It could result in people, dropping the 2. TC next to their starting one … But this is also an disadvantage so I’m fine with it.

Now the delayed single TC push:

It should delay in average every 2. TC by 20 seconds. It means 1 villager less. Lets assume your opponent wants to punish you, after you build your 2. TC and goes for a bigger push with rams, 5 min later.

During that time the player with the 2. TC has now a total of ~ 300 resources less, on pup patch!
~200 resources less gathered (1 villager less)+ 50 extra costs of TC + idle time (around 50 resources for 6-8 vills building it)

That is quite a bit! This could be ~4 spearmen more defending your base …
This opens up a bigger time window to punish the 2. TC.

Keeps:

I like that they also nerfed keeps at the same time! A defensive panic keep drop, is now also more punishable.
Thanks to siege being slow and trebs take time with their shots, this could also punish the defensive player building it, while u watch the slow treb moving and shooting and it was not enough to destroy it while building up, this could make the difference here between a long and a short game.

I really like it, keeps are very strong and should be not that easy to drop.

This are all good news IMO, the devs are aware that some playstyles and strategic options are currently not viable. You see it across the board, the trading will become cheaper, the cheaper techs in feudal will open up stronger specialised BOs …

What will remain?

But what will stay, is the lack of real counterplay!
If both players just boom. China vs Abba, basically just delays the game for them, the game will most likely be the same, but longer.

Here is one idea i recently got regarding the defensive structures:
I find that idea pretty cool and interesting so let me know what you think …

There is an ability at every defensive structure, like the emergency repair from HRE

This will activate the currently strong auto target fire for some time, after lets say 30 seconds
It will go on cooldown for another 30 seconds and switches to its old behavior where it focuses the unit that is the closest to the defensive structure until it dies or moves out of range!
This could then also be a toggable abillity! So new players and casuals don’t have to worry much about it, it automatically activates when a siege unit does damage, is in range and a other non siege unit is also in fire range. So its nearly optimal even if you don’t do anything, but it could ofc be also baited out, by a good player!

I totally get it, why they made this change! For a defensive player, this was super micro intensive, to get use out of your TCs / Keeps. Not everyone has an high apm and can utilize it … But this opens up a time window again for the aggressor, to actually fight under time pressure under defensive structures! This would lead to a back and forth again and both players can do mistakes here.
I would love to see again, fights under defensive structures to be an option, this was entertaining to watch and also so satisfying to play if you are the agressor or the defender, on both sides, it felt great. If you manage to hold great if you manage to get the keep or TC down, great!

This ability would be strong by default but could give you better value if you do it manually.

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I was going to make this comment and I take advantage of the fact that you created this thread, I remember that a patch Keeps received more damage while they were being built, that could be implemented in the TC, look at training, he doesn’t mind losing 2 villagers while building the tc because you will get them back with double porduction of villagers. If the Tc takes more damage while building the Tc it will take longer to produce and will lose more villagers

Tc training

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I am pretty sure the keep has +40 seconds build time.

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Your right, thanks for pointing that out.

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Good Point. If the extra damage is really just limited to keeps and not all buildings.
I like this idea, it does not further delay the game and increase the chance to delay or even destroy it.

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I think the change was good. I would not have wanted it to be any more drastic. I think they should be cautious and only tweak it a bit. Ideally 2 TC should be viable, but not mandatory.

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You know what actually bothers me most when trying to play aggresive?

Is the absolutely insane range of the TC at times.
Imo, they should shorten the range of the TC by 2 tiles or something.
Maybe even give a outline, because sometimes it feels really inconsistent, at times they shoot outside their range, other times they dont even react. At times you even have TC being able to cover ALL resources. (Gold, stone, woodline and berries, rare times even deer on maps that isn’t suppose to have close deerspawn)

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Same. I’m so used to aoe2, we should at least be able to click on the opposing structures to see their range.

The variation in range you are seeing might be due to terrain though, as it warps perspective, along with the fact that once you have entered TC range, and exit it, the TC will still carry out it’s attack. From your perspective it seems like it’s attacking you from outside range, but it’s only because the attack started so late

Does it? I don’t see how this is possible

I think the TC nerf is more psychological than physical (even if it is still a physical nerf)

People will over react to the nerf and make fewer TCs in ranked purely because they perceive a nerf, we see this all the time when a unit is buffed (even if it’s a practically small buff, players will make the buffed unit more)

And for the people that don’t realise it +30s build time actually translates to something like +6s build time considering the number of builders used

And finally, the most important part. Eco and trade is being buffed quite significantly, this itself encourages options outside of multi TC booming. It makes aggression on a single TC much more viable.

French eco tech is so cheap now it’s awesome. I loved playing with that change

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Does it not? I don’t see where I am far off.

your right, it is a small nerf overall, but don’t underestimate small impacts early on.
I think fine-tuning here is the right way.

I see you build your first TC with 10+ villagers :smiley:

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What’s the formula youre using to calculate build time??

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10 villagers build a quarter of the time

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It was just some fooling around, indicated by smileys, approximations :slight_smile:
I was aware to get it on 1/5 of build time u need 13, but since he was guessing just, 30 goes down to 6, i said a min of 11 (10+).

I will try to be more precise next time I bring up numbers, i promise :smiley:

Formula: Build Time * 3 / (2 + Villagers)

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I will still do double TC Fresh Foodstuff every game. But it might impact pro level.

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Beasty said double TC is still meta just delayed; and I believe demuslim said the same thing; at least you can see demuslim STILL doing double TC with his standard civs.

HOWEVER I will say I see Beasty putting his TC more defensively!!? That is an IMPACTFUL change!

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HOw did you figure or where did you FIND this formula???

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sheet

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I see you’re a man of culture :slight_smile:

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They need ti go the nongol route… TCs need cost 900 resources then it becomes jist as impossible to go 2nd TC as it is for mongol. The 50 stone plus 30s isn’t enough to stop thr 2nd Tc meta bc the payoff os still sub 6min and the defense of the TC is strong.

Another option is like someone else had mentioned is to reduce the garrison compacity and TC HP.

Last option is NOT to buff the ram altogether but to buff it toward TCs same way they buffed it vs walls. So instead it taking 1 ram 60s to kill TC make 1 ram take 45s to kill TC which means 2 rams kills in 23s if uncontested.

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Here is a quick summary, of what I was reading so far about it.

  • It should require stone to repair them.
  • Less garrison space → Tech to increase it (that idles the TC)
  • Increasing the cost
  • Increasing the build time
  • Reduce HP
  • Decrease the fire rate
  • Add a toggleable ability that can be manually activated. Activated it auto-targets units, if it is on cooldown it behaves like before.
  • Add extra damage while it is building up
  • Reduce the cost of rams
  • Buff rams
  • Give TCs less Torch resistance (-5) to help melee units to destroy it
  • reduce fire range of TCs
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