[Reconsidered] Increase building time for castle drop

Today, almost all game includes castle drop. Arena, BF is fine, but boring in nomad, annoying in arabia. I know the counters, few archers for denying, boom, harass, earlier imping for treb. However castle drop gives the dropper little behind unexpectedly, it forces the opponent to replace his farms, TC, and other buildings with many res. Castle drop is sometimes OP.

So I suggest increasing castle building time, not changing base time 200s, but changing the culculation when building with many vils. Now the culculation is

  • 3x[base time]/(a+2) (“a” is the number of building vils)

When building castle, next culculation will adopt to.

  • 9x200/(a+8) (“a” is the number of building vils)

10 vils can build a castle in 100s (instead of 4 vils). It will give higher risk for castle drop by eco behind. I hope this change will be adopted.

【Added my thought to deal with CD】
Build something within 10 tiles around your TC

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Also just one dimensioanl to play around once it happens? The answer is always just to Fast Imp for Ranged siege and maybe making a counter Castle depending on whether you have Bombard and or want to secure yourself.

I was just about to post about that subject. In my opinion, castle drops and the like (kreposts, TCs, although not towers) are by far the biggest problem of the game, and I keep wondering why nobody seems to be bothered by them.

The issue, I think, comes from the fact that in such a game military actions happen in real time (it takes a few seconds for a knight to kill a villager, for instance) but that building, for obvious reasons, happens at an extremely accelerated speed. Think of the time it took to build castles in the Middle Ages. If i’m not mistaken we are talking about years. That means villagers, to be conservative, build at least thousands of times faster than in real life. And the fact that your military units’ training is also sped up rarely helps you when dealing with a building drop. Building and the rest of the action therefore happen in two different space time realities, or whatever you want to call it. That gives the hammer of villagers a highly disproportionate effect compared with the sword of military units. Most players, maybe consciously but probably implicitly, have realized this and abuse of this discrepancy all the time, which makes for ridiculous games imo.

Now, building has to be sped up in such a game of course, but some mechanism has to be introduced to compensate. If I remember correctly, in older versions of the game unfinished buildings used to be very vulnerable, I don’t know why that changed. One way or another, vulnerability, or build times as you suggest, is a matter of degree and I don’t see why either could’nt be tweaked to reach the ideal gameplay balance. However, as the issue also extends to quick walling, I tend to prefer playing with the vulnerability aspect. An unfinished building can still act as protection for villagers. Right now building villagers can too easily finish a building that military units are attacking. 2 villagers can build a castle while 7 longswords are attacking it from the start. Moreover, in real life, destroying is easier than building. Imo, if 10 villagers start building a castle and 10 enemy villagers start attacking it 2 seconds later, it should be destroyed. That resistance could be increased as construction advances, so that the same 10 enemy villagers can’t do the same if the castle is already, say, 50% built. These numbers could be changed to reach the best balance.

The very names “quick walling” and castle “drop” are suspicious. Aoe is not meant to be a realistic game, but other unrealistic features usually have a gameplay justification for them, whereas castle drops have none.

I remember when I started to play Aoe2DE, seeing people trying to build aggressive castles and thinking, “What is he doing?.. He doesn’t have military control of the zone, I’m gonna destroy his castle…” But of course I quickly learned that’s not how it works. Ideally, doing a castle “drop” would be a risky business, and would have to involve careful planning, diversion or exploitation of military momentum and not merely abusing a game mechanic. It would make for much more interesting games, in my opinion.

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I think aoe2 should introduce the features of territory, the building outside certain tiles of TC will get increased build time.

Simply increase castle build time will affect defensive castle too, it will result big delay on eco when a castle is being built.

Microsoft already implemented this concept in Rise of Nations. My belief is that the people in Microsoft heard the complaints of the players who were sick of castle drops. (I know that this company were the publishers, not the developers, of both RON and AOE, but there is a connection; besides they’re very similar RTS). There is a huge problem with territory: it’s boring. It obliterates dynamism. In Rise of Nations you have national borders, inside which no enemy can build. Seems like a nice antidote against forward building and tower rush and such. But it’s not fun. Rise of Nations is a forgotten game, while Age of Empires isn’t.

Yes, the other one you have left is to limit buildings like AoE 3 and that can generate a lot of rejection among AoE 2 players…

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Well this is not the same that @FreeWinPlz1739 proposed. Arbitrary limits or “crystal walls” are poor and boring mechanics, I agree, but a building rate decay mechanic sounds more organic. Myself proposed this a time ago Building rate decay
I think this could be healthly for the game, because with a builting time decay towers could be buffed (by giving better stats or make them cheaper) without the risk of promote tower rush.

I know, but it kills the fun in an equal measure. Making towers weaker in the Feudal age is the way devs found to reduce the annoyance of tower drops without going against the spirit of the game. As for castle drops, which is the topic here, one has to learn to defend from them, just like with scout/archer rushes.

I’ve re-read the first line of the OP: “Today, almost all game includes castle drop” My experience lately is “today, almost all game includes scout rushes”, which is pretty obvious when the map is arena and the opponent plays as franks. So what do I do? Spears. The key is learning to defend from all possible kind of attacks.

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I really don’t like territory mechanics because they feel so arbitrary and weird. I was looking into 0ad, which is a fantastic game. However, it has strong territory mechanics and it completely turned me off.

I do believe that castle drops require a nerf, but that’s not for arena or arabia. Castle drops are the most obnoxious and annoying thing on nomad maps. Since you don’t know the starting locations on nomad maps, the best strategy is to wall up and castle drop, on nomad maps.This reduces the importance of armies and turns the game into “who can drop a castle the fastest”. I love nomad, and this has made the game into an annoying and frustrating exlerience.

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I like wise observations like this. Imo the best solution would be making stone piles all one tile only and spread out (maybe even protected by some wolves) on Nomad maps. Thus castle drop becomes a tradeoff rather than no brainer.

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solution: castle drops should take a looooooooooooooooong time to build when closer to the opponent’s start area. 'Cos that land wouldn’t be dominated by you in real life, and a castle on another kingdom makes NO sense at all without the region being yours. Also you’d spotted when you started to build such a large and impressive building. :smile:

  • 6x200/(a+5) (“a” is the number of building vils)

may be better than

  • 9x200/(a+8) (“a” is the number of building vils)

Yes, it could be…because prohibiting you from being able to build castles near the enemy tc is very artificial…

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If reasoning is needed for such a suggestion there is a simple one. Carrying so much stone to the enemy base would take forever and of course be scouted at some point, but in the own base you have the materials available.

Distance from your own nearest TC could be used to affect the building time if you want to make it harder to build castles far away from home / castle drop.

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yup, prohibiting that could make no sense. But the logistics needed to drop a caslte in a different kingdom away from your region (base in AoE2) would be a nightmare.

Also castles where usually placed on mountains or hills as advanced outposts to control what was happening in your region.

That whole change could modify AoE 2 gameplay in a very good and original manner.

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Of course, it’s quite a topic…

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What I never really understood is why Towers and Casltes have such high Bonus against Buildings.
Also Stone defences.

IF I wanted to change something about castle Drops this would be the stat I woulc begin with tweaking.

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Yes, things that I will never understand…

What I also want to refer to is the issue that castles are needed to produce UUs
And the already quite long building time is one of the major issues in going for UUs for many civs.

It not only indirectly increases the cost, but also delays the timing of the UUs. And if we have learned something from the last like 1 - 2 years in the meta development is how important these timings are.

That’s why I think making it harder to rush up the Castle is actually the worst of all approaches here. At least the worst I’ve read so far.

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Yes, in AoE 3 you cannot rush with the Forts because you can only build 3 at the same time, although they serve to build all the military units…