Redesign the Siege Workshop

[EliteRiflemann]

First of all, what is the Siege Workshop? Do you eat that?
It is a unique haud building, replaces the European Artillery Foundry. The following units are created in this building.

It costs 200 wood, and is available in fortress age, but is normally used in Industrial nothing else.

My suggestion, enable building from commercial age, allow RAM to be a unit of commercial age. (Come on, it’s not cutting edge technology). Adjust its HP and attack accordingly, that way the unit will be more useful, it should be the most useless unit in the whole game.
Increase the cost of the building to 250W and adjust its exp for profit.

Can this be polished? 15% maybe you see? Although I must admit that 10% is acceptable.

And the following is what I would like us to discuss. The light cannon must be in Industrial? If you ask me, maybe , I mean, a very similar unit very famous here, called Flaming Arrow, is available in Fortress age for Japan, even though they have Yabusame, which in theory should take care of those things. So why the haud cannon must be industrial?

The Haudenosaunees in my opinion, are the civilization that has it more difficult to deal with artillery. Recent buffs for arrow knight, huaraca and the good army lakota make it less difficult to take out artillery. The hauds depend on the Kanyas and Musket Riders, who most of the time to eliminate artillery must launch suicide attacks, if the haud economy were good enough to replace the losses I would not complain, but that is the reality.

So I ask you, what do you think? For me, the cannon should be moved to the fortress age, but with a reduced range of 28 and maybe a little less HP.

Comparison of flaming arrow with Light Cannon

[Moonshadow7475]

@EliteRiflemann

My suggestion, enable building from commercial age, allow RAM to be a unit of commercial age. (Come on, it’s not cutting edge technology). Adjust its HP and attack accordingly, that way the unit will be more useful, it should be the most useless unit in the whole game.

Sounds reasonable.

@EliteRiflemann

The Haudenosaunees in my opinion, are the civilization that has it more difficult to deal with artillery. Recent buffs for arrow knight, huaraca and the good army lakota make it less difficult to take out artillery. The hauds depend on the Kanyas and Musket Riders, who most of the time to eliminate artillery must launch suicide attacks, if the haud economy were good enough to replace the losses I would not complain, but that is the reality.

So I ask you, what do you think? For me, the cannon should be moved to the fortress age, but with a reduced range of 28 and maybe a little less HP.

Comparison of flaming arrow with Light Cannon

Light cannon is IMO the best artillery in the game. Easy to mass, good range, good micro capability, has bonuses against the right unit categories. Hauds really have no trouble dealing with artillery from my experience. Also, you can spam them with the baby dance.

Japan on the other hand, completely different thing, completely different dynamic. Also flaming arrows are trash.

I’d say lakota has the worst time. They can’t really deal with musket/HI + skirmishers + artillery, because they lack a long range unit.

[EliteRiflemann]

I would like to hear the opinion of @KEVINITALIEN670, which for me is the best Haudenosaunee in the world.

In the minute 01:28:00 Kevin must face a Spanish FF, which placed a lot of emphasis on artillery. Here it is more than demonstrated how incredibly difficult it is for a Haudenosaunee to face artillery, I think that not even the Aztecs have so many problems.
Likewise, I also consider the Light Cannon the best artillery in the game, but the flaming arrow is not bad either.
At the very least, it would be great if the multipliers for Musket Ryder vs Artillery increased.

@Moonshadow7475

I’d say lakota has the worst time. They can’t really deal with musket/HI + skirmishers + artillery, because they lack a long range unit.

The good thing about Lakota is that it has Bonepipe Armor that improves damage vs Artillery, the best thing is that it is available in Commercial and not in Industrial

[M00Z1LLA]

Rams really need to be reworked to be more viable. They could also be given to all native civs to provide siege in a way that makes more sense than a “captured mortar”.

1. Add an “infiltration” tech that gives rams stealth so they can get in close enough to use them. Add in the ability to attack artillery (and maybe wagons), and they could occasionally be anti-artillery too.

2. Give them more resistance even if their attack needs to be lowered to compensate. Every other siege unit, even up close ones like flamethrowers have >60% ranged resistance yet rams only have 50%. Bump it up to ~65% ranged resist and ~10% siege resist, and they might be more resilient. The extra resistances could be added with upgrades if rams are available earlier.

[M00Z1LLA]

Lakota needs an upgrade that gives Wakina Rifles the long ranged “Eagle Eye” ability that the USA has for their Cree allies. That would give them some much needed long ranged damage output.

[JordiGarLee]

@EliteRiflemann

(Come on, it’s not cutting edge technology)

First of all:
[Taunt 19]

Second of all:
Could be the same argument for the mantlet. Huron allies get way better mantlet units at age 2.

[Coranhon1]

É horrivel jogar com nativos americanos

A falta de boas armas de cerco torna-os muito fracos. Me lembro da época em que jogava contra a AI europeia no Hard e spammavam canhões. Aí os indígenas só sobrava usar 100 unidades e sem defesa prestável

[KEVINITALIEN670]

tbh I like the fact that the hauds is bad to manage the cannon because if you add the multiplier for the cav the civ would not have too many weak point right (in 1v1), and then you have to adapt and make decent timing with your army and have a decent micro with your units, after all it is the design of the civ (no eco but incredible units, your units are your eco you have to see it like that )
So when you have a civ that mass falc you need to be mobile so a ton of musket rider and try to snipe the falc, when your opponent is doing a lot of cannon you know he is not going to be mobile so take the opportunity to go push, raid etc and after I did it several times but you can go age 4 when your opponent has to back because he is raided with my cav, then he is forced to defend, I have a game against Kaiser Otto when he pushes me falc jan and I can’t stop this push so I choose to be mobile do a ton of cav and go raid, I see him back and I take this situation to send the 1200 creates to just go age 4 with the 2 light cannon and at the end I just managed to win because the age 4 hauds units are incredible and light cannon are so great for killing falc despite having lost 10 vills but my army is unkillable at some point

And btw i don’t know if i am the better hauds right now but i am the player who play the most this civ yes but thx xD

[Moonshadow7475]

@EliteRiflemann

The good thing about Lakota is that it has Bonepipe Armor that improves damage vs Artillery, the best thing is that it is available in Commercial and not in Industrial

Bonepipe armor is way too expensive for age 2, so it may as well be an age3 or age 4 tech, it will make no difference.

@EliteRiflemann

In the minute 01:28:00 Kevin must face a Spanish FF, which placed a lot of emphasis on artillery. Here it is more than demonstrated how incredibly difficult it is for a Haudenosaunee to face artillery, I think that not even the Aztecs have so many problems.
Likewise, I also consider the Light Cannon the best artillery in the game, but the flaming arrow is not bad either.
At the very least, it would be great if the multipliers for Musket Ryder vs Artillery increased.

I think most civs will have a hard time dealing with a spanish FF unless they FF themselves.Spanish FF timing is literally the best FF timing in the game due to their extra shipments.
I don’t think Hauds would need a buff. This comes down to how well they micro their units, and it is fine.

[EliteRiflemann]

@KEVINITALIEN670

And btw i don’t know if i am the better hauds right now but i am the player who play the most this civ yes but thx xD

Oh please sir, don’t be humble, I’ve seen guys higher up the ladder wearing Hauds and they don’t quite reach their heels (?

PS: I’m going to have to take your advice, but you really have to do magic with those kanyas and musket ryders so you don’t have such embarrassing exchanges.

[SimilarOwl0320]

I agree with everything you said (except for Light Cannon on Fortress) . Haud were supposed to be one of the kings of siege weapons along with ottomans but 2/3 of their siege units suck.

Ram and Mantlets are of short range but they are unnecessarily sluggish for non-heavy units not made of iron (lore-wise). At the very least the big button that boost their speed could be cheaper or they could be slightly faster.

Deep down they need to be looked at. They were never useful.

[dansil92]

i truly believe most people dont realize how good mantlets can be situationally against ranged civs. 800 ranged hp and buffed by infantry combat. the only trouble is the speed, theyre painfully slow

[SimilarOwl0320]

We don’t because it’s never used. They are too slow and lack range so their own friendly units have a misstep for kiting.

I’d be using these resources in something more useful, but if the speed is set to 3.75 or 4.0 I might consider using them.