Reducing range of all bombard cannon to balance them from trebuchets or (suggestions)

The bombard cannons are too strong.

They are good against:

  • infantry units
  • archers
  • somehow elephants
  • every siege units
  • buildings and walls
  • ships
  • for some obscure reason, fishing ships

Basically, they are a better ram with greater range and huge mobility, lacking pierce defense but can be defended better and better trebuchet at mobility and accuracy. The great bonus is mobility and that even trebuchet is countered by bombard cannons but the trebuchet itself doesn’t counter anything. Another thing is that it can be created without a castle. So, you don’t have to invest stone, making it cheaper than a trebuchet, even considering chemistry.

Lets see how can you defend against them:

Premises is that the knight line doesn’t have any bonus against them so, while it isn’t useless and pretty good due to cavs mobility, halbs can defend the cannons pretty easily, given cannons range.

  • eagle warriors that can be defeated by any gunpowder unit such as hand cannoneer or the militia line except mayans eagle warriors
  • mangudai that are the most effective due to their mobility and high fire rate but are available only for 1 civ
  • rams but easily defendable as rams are slow and can even be countered by the spear line
  • condottiero but only italians and co. have it
  • petards that will never reach them
  • magyar hussars that are available to 1 civ and can be easily defended with halbs with the box formation
  • bombard cannons

and that’s it. Because of their range and mobility all the threats are easily cancelled, except for mangudai that can only be used by 1 civ and themselves.

So my proposal is to nerf them with 2 range, making them 10 range unit (min range reduced to 4), thus vulnerable to castles that are upgraded but still quite good against the other things I listed but more vulnerable given its range. To balance this, give them +2 with siege engineers and +1 pierce armor or better, make a separate tech that cost 500 wood and 300 gold and give them those bonus.

My other proposals are to remove them completely from the game or put back the tech that needed to be researched for them with increase cost of gold by 50.

1 Like

Every day people complain about a different unit.
This game is 20 years old, and is almost Buddha balanced (with a few exceptions). BBCs do not give any decenmt player any issues.

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If everyday people complain about different units, you just have to take the unit that is complained the most and check its issue because it surely has one.
This game is 20 years old but it is not like it stayed the same without any civ additions, techs removed or added, balance patches.

Bombard cannons are great if they have a meat shield of other units. Without a meat shield bombard cannons become cannon fodder.

Bombard cannons can only be made in imperial age. They require chemistry before you can create them. And they are pretty expensive. I dont see any issue with bombard cannons.

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The same can be said for trebuchets and they are worse than bombard cannons. Not only they require a castle, but they have to pack and unpack, are countered by bombard cannons and their accuracy and fire rate is worse.

Trebuchets deal a lot more damage than BBCs, and have much greater Range, not to mention almost double the HP.

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Trebs and bombard cannons dont have the same role. Trebs are great against buildings. I havent seen a treb missing a building ever. So they have 100% accuracy for the role they meant to be. Trebs are meant to deal with units and siege, so yeah, they have less accuracy against units and siege. Trebs maybe have worse fire rate, but there damage output is higher. Damage output of treb is 200. Damage output of bombard cannon is just 40. Trebs deals 5x damage of bombard cannons! Trebs have much more hp (150 vs 80), much more range (16 vs 12). They also are a bit cheaper. Until now the treb seems much better. To have things balanced trebs has to be created at castles and has to be packed/unpacked. Also bombard cannons are great against snipe siege as a bonus to them. This seems to me as pretty balanced.

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yes and they are good only at that having a huge disadvantage because they can safely take castle which is that they have to pack/unpack. This problem is solved by bombard cannons that can destroy both trebuchet and buildings while having the disadvantage that, nothing really.

Trebuchet actually can miss buildings, tested it on a house, on the other hand, bombards accuracy against buildings is 100% because the building doesn’t move. Treb doesn’t really counter siege because its accuracy is faulty and it doesn’t have splash damage like bombards. Bombards deal 240 against buildings due to its bonus and while trebuchets deal more, because of bombards fire rate, they demolish the building almost at the same time (only 2-4 less hits). Other things you wrote don’t really matter as both of them safely can destroy buildings.

Trebs have cons and pros compared to bombard cannons. You seems to only look at their cons and conclude they are much worse. Have a look at their pros. About the pros of trebs you are literally they dont matter. I will tell you: They do matter. Please do not neglect the pros of trebs over bombard cannons.

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Bombard cannons are useless against anything but siege and buildings and I guess ships

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Yeah, BBCs are not a problem. They’re a counter to siege, that’s about it. Attack them with literally anything else and poof, you win.

Honestly, you’re the first person I’ve ever see complain about them at all.

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Bombard cannons are frailer and can be taken down by archers, their splash damage is also too small so you’re exaggerating their effectiveness. Only Portuguese and Ethiopians can use them in actual combat. They also need chemistry to be researched, an expensive tech that takes pretty long to research. Then there’s the fact that it takes full 56 seconds to train and that conscription doesn’t apply to a siege workshop.

Your suggested nerf makes them a worse and more expensive onager that can’t deal with castles. They cost 225 wood and 225 gold btw, the most expensive unit in the game. Also the most difficult siege unit to keep alive because they barely outrange castles and they often get distracted by units

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You have yet to cite a good pros of trebuchet. They do good against buildings, true but the same is for bombards and while trebuchets have bigger range, bombards mobility is better in every situation as this mobility lets him take trebuchets and buildings and the other things i listed. Read them.

Do you guys even read the thread? Siege Onager has max 8+1 range which means bombards would still counter them but they won’t do well against castles or trebuchet till they search siege engineer which is a good compromise given all the benefits they have (even against units) while the trebuchet doesn’t.

You can protect them easily with onagers + skirmishers or even knights.

And trebuchet needs 50 secs. While you can’t build many castles, you can build as many workshop as you want. And each unpacking packing is about 7 secs. Factor that multiple times and trebuchet costs both in cost and time more than bombards.

No they would still be good against every buildings and units and siege and even castles after researching siege engineer. They can’t be immediately good for castle as it undermines trebuchet. There is no reason to go for trebuchet. Also chemistry costs more or building a castle + trebuchet costs more? And without castle no trebuchet while you can simply build another workshop.

BBC already requires chemistry and aren’t available until the imperial age.

There is literally nothing wrong with them, and certainly nothing that requires a ‘compromise’. They’re a reasonably powerful, expensive unit. If you want to kill them, kill them with units. Literally anything can do it. Don’t expect to kill them with buildings or siege, which are the exact things they’re designed to counter.

You have absolutely no viable points.

10 Likes

the treb’s range allows you to have units in front of them to protect them. Against a castle with bracer, you can’t have units in front of the bombard cannon because you’re in range. Even an onager works to kill the BBC firing at the castle.

see above, you’re sniping them in a comfort range of 8, while the units you listed have to stand behind the BBC.

And trebuchet needs 50 secs. While you can’t build many castles, you can build as many workshop as you want. And each unpacking packing is about 7 secs. Factor that multiple times and trebuchet costs both in cost and time more than bombards.

38 with conscription, and trebs are much more efficient. BBC almost always need siege engineers to deal with castles both for range and damage

No they would still be good against every buildings and units and siege and even castles after researching siege engineer. They can’t be immediately good for castle as it undermines trebuchet. There is no reason to go for trebuchet.

Okay first, by the time you get to imperial everyone has a castle or they’re losing. Trebs are used almost every game, trebs are 100% more effective against castles ask any pro.

Also chemistry costs more or building a castle + trebuchet costs more? And without castle no trebuchet while you can simply build another workshop.

You can only research chemistry after reaching imp, but you can build castles before imp. Don’t act like castles are useless buildings only for training trebs. They’re always built for map control

And honestly stop with these “Day 4 I lost my 8 crossbows to a mangonel shot, nerf plz” threads

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Benefits of a trebs:

  • They have more HP
  • They deal more base damage
  • They have more range
  • They are cheaper than bombard cannons
  • They dont require chemistry before they can be created

Benefits of bombard cannon:

  • They dont require a castle
  • They are more mobile
  • They counter siege

I guess these are the main benefits for both. Really, this seems really balanced.

6 Likes

Ah yes, the classic complaint that this one 20 years old unit is somehow extremely broken and completely overpowered.

OP must be on such high level that it became obvious, while literally everyone who has been playing the game for the past two decades are too noob to see the evidence and use such a broken unit to our advantage.

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They are overpowered in the aoe2 logic where units have counters that can effectively counter them and every civ has that counter (less or more good).

Because it seems you didn’t even try to read what I wrote, I’ll be retyping using your format.

Benefits of trebs:

  • they have more HP that can easily be countered by bombards
  • they deal more base to only 1 type of things and even there the bombard cannon is the same as its accuracy is 100% unlike the trebuchet that can miss
  • they have more range and can safely attack buildings exactly like… wonder bombard cannon
  • they are cheaper by 25 gold cheaper which is basically nothing
  • they don’t require chemistry before but they require a huge castle that costs 650 stone (which is also villagers investment in mining + building)

Benefits of bombard cannons

  • they don’t require a castle meaning you can create them even if the castle is destroyed which is a huge bonus
  • they are mobile and this already beats trebuchet 7 sec packing/unpacking. Mobility is almost everything in this game. Imagine wasting 100 secs to unpack pack to destroy some bombard towers or do it linearly.
  • they counter siege, buildings like trebuchet, units such as archers or even infantry, ships
  • can be easily protected like the trebuchet but in case enemy is getting close can get back without any delay
  • they have less hp that can’t be countered by trebuchets

Ever heard of…cavalry? Neither had the Aztecs, but they are strange men of war astride great unhorned deer, who gallop majestically across the battle fields and bring swift death to many, especially bombard cannons. Oh, and infantry also counter BBCs pretty well. If you discount the knight line because of having no bonus against BBCs (why should they?) and because the BBC player can also make halbs, you’re no longer talking about a unit, you’re talking about a composition. And compositions are a two-way street, since the enemy can make multiple unit types to deal with your multiple unit types.

So much this. There should be one big dumpster thread for everyone to rant, rave, and propose nonsensical “balance changes” to basic units, so that the rest of us can happily ignore said thread.

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