Remove Siege Elephants and add Bombard cannons

Too many buffs and the civ gets OP and not fun anymore.

Stop making Zams in TR. not every unit needs to be TR viable. Crossbow men, pikemen, steppe riders, etc… are all age 2/ early age 3 units then get phased out as the game progresses. Its the same with Zams and Sowars. The only benefit they need is to train faster so India could mass an army in a pinch instead of suffer to ever get their momentum back. Lookng at the weapon they use, its a short barreled weapon (more like a blunderbuss than a cannon), and even if it has rifling is not going to be a long range gun. Pretty big bore though hence the high amount of damage it can do to cavalry. it seems realistic enough. Muskets can technically shoot much further than they do, but get such a short range because for any type of realistic accuracy have to be at point blank range. So a well made pistol with rifling and snugger fitting ammunition is going to be more accurate at plus 2 range.


Why do siege eles need to go? All civs need a long range anti artillery unit. Howdas would not provide that as their range is too short. I love siege eles even with their weaknesses, if used well are very strong units. But alas to many just want to play India like a goon/ skirm cannon civ and not realizing the strength of Sepoy, Mahout, Urumi

The sacred field idea makes more sense than adding buildings and giving them trickles of coin. once the fighting starts in TR, the XP the sacred fields give is not as noticable to gaining shipments, at that point all the civs stay pretty well inline with shipment progression. So it could be made into something more useful by giving export.

There is no reason to get rid of the coin production on rice paddies, Plantations are rectangular and would mess up the grid for the Karni mata placement.

What rank do you play at?

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Steppe Riders are still viable late game, they just function more like Oprichnik. Maybe Zamburak still wouldn’t be super viable late game, but a range boost would still be appropriate.

No it’s not, it’s a swivel gun. They already have fictional siege units so it’s not surprising if they depict Zamburaks wrong too. Zamburak - Wikipedia

Lakota and Inca don’t have one so it’s not exactly a requirement, and India has the consulate to supplement.

Making Siege Elephants into Culverins with a modestly sized gun is going to make them really hard to tell apart from Howdahs so that’s why I want to remove or rework them. Reworking them into something that needs to be set up on the ground could be interesting, but it would probably be best as just a Mortar equivalent. If it could still attack artillery it would have the same gameplay issues of targeting the wrong units and wasting its potential. If you want a bigger role for Urumi, you could maybe give them an ability like Chimu Maneuver to let them bypass blocking units and occasionally take out some cannons.

I’m not suggesting that, just something equivalent to a plantation.

Plantations are actually square (not visually but they are in their placement) so that’s not an issue. The Asian version could be the exact same size as a rice paddy, or maybe even smaller to indirectly buff the Karni Mata.

Steppe Riders are not used much in TR, Its hard to use them like Oprichniks since they have to be trained with other units. And boxing with them would not be a good thing as they drop pretty fast. I dunno though I guess I have not tried it… in thousands of games played I have never seen anyone use them like that. Rarely even making them to fight with.

Concerning Zams: taken from the description “…the cannon’s accuracy and range were rather low” Really what the game does not do, is force them to have the camel sit to fire, and if they did would have to be an entirely different unit as hand cav would get up close and kill them since the only way they beat hand cav is with good micro.

I do not have a problem distinguishing Howdas and siege eles. They already are a culverin type unit, nothing to change there. I think you just need to learn to micro your units better. having it not target units is not needed and can still target useless wall segments so really its not reliable to let the computer do the thinking for you. Siege eles are a unique unit, fast and mobile, but short range, high High hp and easier to counter is good balance. What you are suggesting is boring, it just makes it a mortar? that has to unpack and disappear? for really no good reason would just make them worse units. And then you would have to buff howdas into a culverin unit which it would also be poor at due to its 16 range vs 26 range cannon.

Urumi do not counter cannons, Cannons counter Urumi!!.. the only thing Urumi need is to arrive faster from the home city. too much pop is in limbo for 40 sec. Which is why people do not use them, and do not use India to its full potential.

concerning rice paddies I guess it is hard to tell what you mean by this “tea plantation building that would generate coin and could be toggled to an increased fraction of export.” so basically you want a new skin for a rice paddy, taking away its ability to switch resources (a nerf essentially as part of the awesomeness of paddies is they can switch), but also want a new ability from a similar type of building so you can gather export with villagers… they basically already have that at the consulate by switching the -10% gather rates for 60% export increase. Do you ever use that in your game play?

These are really confounding and unnecessary changes.

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Zams just need to be viable for if Persia is ever added as they would be the obvious ranged cav for them.

Yes because they have a ridiculously giant cannon on them that is completely fictional.

I don’t have this problem, but tons of people do. It’s just a bad unit that is completely made up. Turn it into something that actually existed and it would be fine. It doesn’t have to be a mortar clone. When packed up it is a freaking elephant so it could have some melee capabilities to keep it unique. Possibly even have different tags when packed vs unpacked.

Any melee unit that gets on top of cannons kills them even ones countered by cannons. A maneuver ability would also be useful against a variety of things and allow you to get right into the fray to maximize area damage.

How is this confusing? It would just be a plantation, no trickles at all. The base gather rate on export could be a bit higher for it to differentiate it and have it synergize with the Asian factions. That extra export could have a toggle similar to the consulate but just for plantations, but just a higher gather rate would probably be enough.

Rice paddies are a terrible design with no visual indicator for what resource they are set to. The “awesomeness of rice paddies” is actually just unfair. European and Native factions need two buildings and also have to deal with bumping.

Urumi are melee infantry they do range damage in melee mode with a 1 rate of fire. They barely counter cannons.

So true.

As for howdah, They are a very decent unit, Probably the only good unit of India. It has a high attach n 3 rate of fire n good hp , but is balanced with less range and ok-ish rate of fire. it already counters normal cannons nicely but carries good risk of dying in the process due to short range. It doesnt really need a change. The only change needed would be, adding +1 range to siege ele with each upgrade so instead of 28/30, it can can 30/32 range and perform its designed task (Culv+mortar) well , withough being too OP in any game mode.

As for uniqueness n fighting strategy, India was the most unique civ in the game, but that has been diluted and nothing new is imported , now even double shipments, I would be in favor of India being a major melee civ, and not another skirm/goon civ. But for that to happen, mahawat n Urumi needs to be more viable, accessible and optimized, specially for late game.

Also, have already created a broader topic for India, as Indian issues are too many and too little: India needs an late game update. Ideas and suggestions

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I didn’t realize they do ranged damage. They might actually be the worst unit against cannons then.

Howdahs are just another beefy goon that’s often paired with Gurkhas. Yes they are a good unit currently but if you want India to be a melee civ, being attached to their goon unit is a little counterproductive. If Howdahs got shifted more towards a culv role (with better range) and less of a goon, you could look at buffs to other anti-cav options like Sepoy. With an actual cannon unit you could cover the Sepoy weakness to Skirms. Buffs to Mahouts could also let them be viable in that mix.

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Thank you I will check that thread out… i love talks about India especially with people who recognize its true strength as a melee civ.

Why is there so much resistance to this? because the TR meta would have to change for Euro civs as it forces them to fight in other ways such as making more hand cav, or needing more walls, and even beefier muskets or halbs to guard cannons.

Because the urumi mahout sepoy combo just destroying goon skirm without walls. So I think the powers that be are afraid of India. When designed like this I actually think the Siege ele range is OKAY, because artillery supremacy is the only way to beat it, so they need to be a weaker unit and have a chance fo be countered.

In Legacy I played several civs in TR, but none was more fun and challenging as India and I played them most of all, and got to a Major rank with them at one point. Even with all Legacy hindrances. (though some civ matchups would not be worth it) and I do not even use very many hot keys or have the greatest APM. But I do understand how to balance and position my units and read what the other person is attacking me with.

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Yeah Urumi are special… they do ranged damage in melee bypassing HI resist, and also have a ROF of 1, so their attack is actually 50% higher than it looks compared to other melee units. hand cav and artillery are the best counters.

Sepoy are great anti cav units, they do not need any more buffs, they are much better as cavalry counters than Howdas. Howdas are only needed if the person is sending wave after wave of cav and Sepoy need a little help as a way to give ranged damage to the melee wall of Sepoy.

So I do disagree that Howdas are Indias only good unit. I try not to make them if I can. As they drain the coin eco too fast. But in some cases vs some civs they are needed and then paired up with Gurka, but this is only something I do in dire circumstances.

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This unit did exist, it’s just that I don’t know if it was actually a siege unit, or it was some kind of abus or light cannon like the Swedish leather cannon.

Maybe it’s a bit exaggerated.

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