Request: Make Goths Okay Again

I play Goths about 50% of the time because I’m an old school AOE 2 player. (Aside from water maps) With that said, I agree totally this civ needs a buff with the power creep in place with these new civs etc. Since after AOC, Goths were nerfed by taking away treadmill crane and nothing has been provided ever since. Now the supplies argument is being used too and rightfully so because I don’t see how it’s fair to give every other civ that tech and not compensate the Goths in some way. I saw someone post that civs like Mongols and Franks wont use supplies because they have bonuses elsewhere. If the game goes late Imperial, Champions are very useful in trash wars last time I checked. And giving them supplies saves them food to convert to gold in the market. Just saying…

My proposal to change the civ is as follows: Increase the Infantry price reduction from 35 to 40% starting in Feudal Age. This would help alleviate not having supplies IMO and would be a fair change. I’m also in favor of giving Goths the last plate mail armor upgrade especially due to the fact that Elite Huskarls are still outclassed against Champions, Cavalry, and Hand Cannons late in the game. Personally, I would not give them an Eco bonus aside from possibly changing the boar eco bonus to have more benefit. Maybe have the Goth Boar hunters work faster or something along those lines.

The OP has a point and it should be taken into consideration by the Devs. Even the Khmer and Vietnamese got Buffs lately and so should the Turks too but that’s another story. Hopefully we can see some buffs in favor of the Goths in the near future.

I wouldn’t worry about the house direction, but i actually think them having 10 extra pop from the beginning might be a viable option rather than just having it at the imperial age. Maybe start with -50 food or something like that to make up for it if it’s too strong.

None of that buffs their early game.
Mabye change infantry cost reduction to 25% all ages?

I don’t really care where the house starts.
It just seems like a potential problem to me.
The extra pop really should be 10%, instead of a flat number.


25% cost reduction to infantry is fine in all ages as long as you give them supplies then. However, I would change the cost of Huskarls to a lesser amount if that’s the case. (Supplies has no impact on them) This civs strategy is if you get Imperial Age, you become pretty much a juggernaut in the late game. I would like to keep it that way therefore an eco buff would make them too OP IMO. I think adding extra villagers from the beginning to coincide with the extra population in Imperial age makes sense like you said. It provides the slight early boost needed.

I still believe Goths should get the last plate mail armor upgrade in Imperial Age as well for infantry. You got civs like Japanese who attack faster, Aztec +4 infantry attack with Jags, Burmese +3 attack, Vikings with extra HP etc. Goths are the only infantry Civ that doesn’t get the final plate mail upgrade which makes no sense IMO. As Joseph Stalin said during World War II, there’s a quality about quantity and that’s the Goths meta. You pound your opponent into submission by massing numbers quickly with cheap units.

I wrote a long post yesterday here about my idea of balancing Goth and supplies, but seems like it never got away from my phone… But anyways i will try to write my idea again but not as detailed.

I liked many ideas that were posted in this thread and wanted combine a few of them.

General buff of Goth(Make their unique bonuses useful and an early eco boost):
:black_medium_square:Goth start with 10 pop housing and have +10% max housing.
:black_medium_square:Goth gets 100+ food from boars.

If Goth needs further buffs consider lowering wood cost for barracks and make their palisades stronger. (Interesting to see if similar early drush like Lithuanian could become viable/ or overpowered)

Changes of the Supply tech (to buff Unique infantry units and small nerf of militia line):
:black_medium_square:Change Supplies to affect all gold infantry units with 20%(instead of 25%) decreased food cost.

Militia line would cost 12 less food
Eagels cost 4 less
Karambit cost 6 less
Condotterio cost 10 less
Shotel warrior cost 10 less
Gbeto cost 10 less
Throwing axman cost 11 less
Samurai cost 12 less
Jaguar warrior cost 12 less
Kamayuk cost 12 less
Woad raider cost 13 less
Berserk cost 13 less
Teutonic knight cost 16 less
Huskarls cost 16 less

I initially don’t see any problems with these units getting buffed by being affected by supplies with a the effect of 20% decrease of food cost, but please explain if and what I have missed something.
Does the spearline need supplies? If so they would cost 28f 25w instead of the normal 35f 25w which is a small difference that might not matter to much.

Balance Goths with supplies:
:black_medium_square:Give Goths supplies (For free from feudal?)
:black_medium_square:Change Goths civ bonus to 25% (instead of 35%) decreased cost of infantry units.

I hope this would make Goth infantry get viable since their Champs would still be 25% cheaper (-15f & -5g compared to now -7f & -6g).
Also Huskarls would become resource wise cheaper (44f & 30g vs now 52f & 26g), but cost more gold.
Goths spearline would get a bit nerfed (26f 19w vs 23f 16W).

Since Goths units will cost little more gold with this change then what they do now they will be a bit weaker for late imperial age, but maybe it is not a too big of problem since infantry still is a gold efficient units and will have an advantage compared to other civs with their 25% lower gold cost?

Also want to mention that I’m not an expert, just have a huge interest of the game and want it to be as good it possible can get! I also believe there is other things that is more important to fix than civ balances, but also thinks balancing is quicker to adjust and revert if gone wrong.

Any thoughts?

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If you nerf the Goth bonus (wich would make them NEED to research supplies) and allows supplies to affect everyone, then you would impact Goths by reducing their gold discount AND make them spend golds on Supplies, and since all the infantry UU are affected, huge Goths killers like Jaguar Warriors, Samurai and Throwing axemen would be affected as well, so it would worsen the situation (since gold is more important than food lategame, it would be detrimental to Huskarl production)

How do Goths even last late game?

Thanks for your answer.
That’s why Goth maybe should get supplies for free to make them better in feudal and early castle age.

Good that you bring the main UU melee counter units up.
The price for the units with my idea {Stats fully upgraded: Health(HP,) Attack(A), Attack Rate(R ), Melee Armour(MA), Pierce Armour(PA), Speed(S), Creation(C )“c” if only from castles, Other Bonuses(B)} (Main unit function):

Champs: 33f & 15g {HP: 70, A: 17, R: 2.03, MA: 3, PA: 3, S: 0.99, C: 8, B: +8 vs Eagles +7 vs buildings}
(Strong and gold efficient unit. Weak to archers, gunpowder, high melee armor and scorpions & onagers)

Huskarls: 44f & 30g {HP: 70, A: 15, R: 2.03, MA: 2, PA: 11, S: 1.16, C: 5, B: +10 vs Archers +3 vs Eagles +7 vs buildings}
(Anti archer & Raid unit, countered by strong melee units & gunpowder and scorpions & onagers)

Other counter infantry units:
Jaguars: 48f & 30g {HP: 75, A: 20, R: 2.03, MA: 5, PA: 5, S: 1.1, C:c 12, B: +11 vs infantry, +10 vs Condittiero, +2 vs Eagles +4 vs buildings}
(Anti infantry. Weak to archers, gunpowder and scorpions & onagers)

Samurai: 48f & 30g {HP: 80, A: 16, R: 1.92, MA: 4, PA: 5, S: 1.1, C:c 6, B:+12 vs Unique Units +3 vs Eagles +5 vs Buildings}
(Strong infantry, Anti UU. Weak to archers, gun powder and scorpions & onagers)

Axemen: 41f & 25g {HP: 70, A: 16, R: 2.03, MA: 4, PA: 4, S: 1.1, C:c 12, B: Ranged +5 range, +2 vs Eagles +4 vs Buildings}
(Ranged infantry, Anti units weak to melee attacks. Weak to high armor and long range units)

FU Champs: 48f & 20g {HP: 70, A: 17, R: 2.03, MA: 4, PA: 5, S: 0.99, C: 14, B: +8 vs Eagles +6 vs buildings}
(Strong and gold efficient unit. Weak to archers, gunpowder, high melee armor and scorpions & onagers)

(Stats taken from probably made some misstakes when calculating the fully upgraded versions)

Jaguars are and will always be a great counter to Goths since Goth is an Infantry civilization and Jaguars is anti infantry unit, the best Goth can do is likely to use hand cannons or Champs with a cost of 33f and 15g vs Jaguars 48f & 30g, Goths could produce twice the champs and a lot faster then Jaguars so maybe not a complete overrun…

Samurais should also be a decent counter and should be countered the same way as jaguars and since they are weaker in almost all aspects then Jaguars they should be easier to defeat with champs.

Axemen are interesting with their range and is a match-up more dependent on numbers and micro since ranged works in a different way then units without range.

FU Champs Will have the extra melee armor that will make the units stronger but since they are 25% or more expensive they should get outnumbered and loose against Goth champs.

Sure Goths would become a bit worse late game compared to today with their champs costing 2 gold more, but they would still be the cheapest low gold cost power unit over other civs. Huskarls is similar to all other gold units (that also is counter units to infantry) hard to afford late late imp.
But i think if the late late game is he problem then they still have the cheapest Halbardiers (missing last armor upgrade), Elite skirmishers & Hussars(but neither fully upgraded either). Maybe Goths don’t need to be strong late imp?

If you mean “weak in trash wars” I don’t feel it’s the case, (only laking armor on Hussars might matter, and then again, many civ have worse LC, and Thumb ring does almost nothing to skirms so wo cares). I’ve compared the Huskarl’s cost on the wiki and in what you write and it’s the sae, is that on purpose?

I thought that was the reason why people thought they where weak late imp, but maybe not.
That is correct it was a mistake, with my idea of balance they would cost 44f 30g instead of the 52f & 26g as they cost atm.

I would make just two minor changes that would balance goths nicely, keeping their personality.
-Their infantry discount bonus starts in dark age instead of feudal.
-Free arson ( move arson to feudal age for all the civs).
-Move squires to feudal age for all civs.

Goths are one of my favorite civs to play, but as any other infantry civ, they often have to rely on archers and scauts until they reach castle or imp, which I think is a shame. Infantry civs should have the option to play infantry from feudal to imp the same way archer civs or cavalry civs can do.

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Interesting ideas, though I would argue that they don’t quite go far enough in rectifying the nerfs to the Goths. Those advantages are gone by late Feudal, and late Feudal/Castle may be when Goths struggle the most. I wholeheartedly agree that their discount should start in Dark (and frankly, I think it could for Japanese infantry attacking faster as well). Instead of free Arson, what about something like the saracen bonus of +1 attack vs buildings/age, except given to infantry instead of archers?

I agree though that most civs, even ones with good infantry, have to tech switch in/out of infantry much of the time. Supplies was a valiant effort to fix this, but didn’t quite do the job, and it would be nice, as you say, for full infantry play to become more viable.


It makes me think that after all, supplies’ food cost is compensated after 10 swordsmen only, and no one does this much swordsmen in feudal… So literraly only slavs would care if supplies were moved to castle.

In my novice opinion half the problem with the goths is not the strength of their bonuses but the weakness of infantry. Seriously can you imagine getting a 35% cost reduction to cavalry plus a unique unit that counters their most common counter.

Prior to the squires upgrade in the castle age. Infantry are the slowest unit class so they struggle to force good engagements. Even after the upgrade this remains true but they can at least keep up with most foot archers.
Being slow and melee also raises the risk involved with raiding and really limits the potential payout. Farms around a tc are very dangerous to melee and villagers can often just run away. These issues are especially true in the dark and feudal ages.
Plus a few well managed archers can hold off 2-3 times their number of man-at-arms.
Scouts on the other hand might lose in a fight with equal resources but they can easily pick their fights taking out reinforcements or counter raiding.

I honestly don’t have a good idea on how to fix this. Small numerical adjustments like 5% increase movement speed, 1 extra armor, or a few extra hp are about as likely to be wildly over powered as they are to do nothing depending on the civilization.


As discussed here, Goth are in much need of a buff after supplies and other changes.

How about replacing:

“Villagers +5 attack vs. wild boar; hunters carry +15 meat”
“Hunters don’t require Mills/Town Centers to drop off food”


I like the idea, but I don’t know if it will be a big enough buff. YeH, you can get deers easily, but you gonna lure the boar anyway (or move 7 vills to where he is, which is idle time). I’ll giv3 it a shot, anyway, but maybe it’s not enough

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I liked the bonus but it could be very broken in certain maps(cant remember there was map which was full of hunting stuff on center) maybe something like huntables lasts longer like mayans’ bonus but for hunted animal only.

I made a thread about this here, with quite a lot of discussion. Check it out to see some of the ideas we had.

See, this sounds like a great bonus if you think it compares favorably to the similar Khmer farm bonus, but it’s effects would be almost negligible in normal games, having somewhere around the effect size of “lumberjacks work 1% faster!” The utility of this bonus is already negated by luring boars, and in most maps will apply to the 3-4 standard deer. However, all civs’ hunters have already been designed with that in mind, hence the hunters’ greater capacity. All you would save is the walk back time from hunting deer (but not really even that, since you would task your villagers to something else after the deer are gone.) The Khmer bonus is good since you will be using farms all game, and the lower carry capacity of farmers means they will save time on frequent dropoffs. So let’s do a little better than that if we’re going to call something an eco bonus.

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Hmm that’s weird to create a new topic when one already exists. I shtere any way you can merge it with @SirWiedreich’s thread?