Rework cataphracts anti-Cav armor

Replace the flat 12/16 bonus damage resistance with a percentage similar to Sicilians. A flat damage resistance is only really balance vs halbs and ignores all the other anti cav units whose bonus damage is almost always completely negated by Cataphracts.

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It seems like a reasonable change.
But I also don’t see it as an important change; I’m not aware of a problem that would be solved by this.


exactly. there is no issue with cataphracts anti cav armor as is. no reason it needs to be nerfed in such a way at all.


yeah, and the problem is?

for those civs that lack a good counter to the cataphract, don’t let them get to the cataphract.

some odd bad civ matchups and strong units in particular situations is not bad balance, it is ideal balance.


I can’t think of a single civ that doesn’t have SOME form of answer to Cataphract.

Maybe fully upgraded Elite Cataphracts with Logistica and in numbers would be problematic for SOME, but considering the INVESTMENT necessary to get that out, they shouldn’t be easy to answer.

It’s easier to debunk the premise of the argument rather than to argue how often such a situation is to occur. Flat damage negation may indeed make some specific civs have problems against it. That being said, unless we’re trying to make every civ the same, we don’t care. These matchups happen when distribution of units, techs, and bonuses are uneven. To claim that a specific bonus is unbalanced in a specific circumstance… that’s the point of having different units.

OP is (essentially) claiming that Mangonels are OP in situations with lots of low-numbered HP in tight chokes. He’s right. He’s not making an argument, he’s pointing out an observable fact. Therefore, the argument is no argument.

Cataphracts are really, really good against Pikeman, Camels, Kamayuks, and servicable (unlike other cav) against Genoese Crossbows, and a lot of other units. So? Where’s your argument?

Seems like you have a problem with Cataphract being a viable win condition in a match ups where the opponent lacks access to Halbs. (They usually have Arbs so no problem)
You offer to flat down the power spike and kill Cataphract’s indentity, making it a Sicilian Knight. Great.

No camel civ struggles against cataphracts anyway, as they all have one or more of arbs, HCA or a better heavy cavalry unit.

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Bad cav and archer civs die to Cataphract in late game. Aztecs and Vikings come to my mind now. Main problem of Cataphract are high cost and very low PA. Cataphract need decent adjustment and buff.

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So, it is perfectly reasonable that Cataphracts take 7 damage from Kamayuks?


No, it is an unfortunate side effect of having unique civ with their own strengths and weakness.
So lets say you are playing as Celts and your opponent gets a castle they have basically won the game since they can make an unit that counters your entire Composition. Or you are playing Berber and you can make Camel archers and since Mongols lack the third armor upgrade for their Archers or calvary you can counter their entire composition. In either case one player gets an unfair advantage for surviving long enough to get a castle because of a civ advantage. Yes it is possible to kill your opponent beforehand but you are still forced to go for early aggression while your opponent only has to survive until they get a castle. While this can make for some interesting game they are hardly perfectly balanced.

Eh tbh I think Celts struggle against catas but they are kind of the only example I can think of rn

Just go knights lol. Farimba cavalier trash catas


Reduce the cost of elite Cataphracts and Logistica but also maybe increase replace some of their food cost with gold.

Your argument, therefore, is…?

So you don’t want civs to have advantages? Or, are you still in lack of an actual argument.

Civs are different. The fact they are different means they will have different strengths and weaknesses. Your argument that the Cataphract runs afoul of this in some way falls entirely flat, because it doesn’t. Byzantines are absolutely not in a position to be nerfed or their UU changed because of any matchup nuances. That’s just silly. Your premise is absurd. Sorry.

It’s more of a soft counter and Byzantines have the option of mixing in cheap halbs or camel. I guess malians could mix in HC

y tho

it’s not like catas are op

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Its not a soft counter. Its cheaper in every way (cheaper to create, to upgrade and built on stables), stronger and faster to mass since it isnt limited to castles

Also Malian camels are better than Byz ones too

Farimba Cavalier will cost-effectively trade against Cataphract. Even Farimba Light cav can be great if you have enough production. Catas aren’t that good except against infantry and Camels. They don’t have good Melee combat ability.

You can train Arb, Monks support with halb when you are Incas. Why Kamayuks have to be good answer here?

I don’t think Catas are that good unit to “win only” unit. Not even close. They are countered by arbs, heavy cavarly, HCA, or even good Hussar with enough production. Only civs struggle to deal with Catas may be Celts or probably Vikings (but they have okaish arbs). Sicilians Hauberk cavaliers/Obuch or Castle age Conqs/ Janis in certain map is more close to “win only with that units” Catas actually need slight buff (slight cheaper or more melee combat ability,)

I remembered seeing this matchup a few months back in a high level game, and the Malian player won by secretely making farimba cavaliers and arbs and ambushing the cataphracts while they were on their way to go kill his champions. Malians in general are now harder to stall out with their additional gold so they have a better chance against the Byzantine’s trash spam as well.

Tbh this mostly depends on the match’s level. For instance I once pulled of a castle drop as Italians against Franks and won despite the fact genbows are hardly an “auto-win” unit against Franks. But in streams I’ve seen stuff like full kipchak winning against Goths despite the threat of huskarl. The Cuman player used is civ’s advantages not to prevent huskarls from being produced at all, but to weaken the enemy so that despite the fact the game dragged on quite a lot, he couldn’t find time to get anarchy and perfusion, and turns out elite huskarl and halberdiers that aren’t spammed super fast are much easier to handle even if your units don’t have the advantage.

Yes. Seeing as thats kind of the cataphracts thing. Being anti anti cavalry.

Their arbs are more then good enough against cataphracts low pierce armor and on top of that they have farimba cavalier.

9 damage arbs still kill cataphracts in a whole 38 shots.

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