Russia the most unfavored? (The Aussie Drongo list of 07/06/2021)

Well I’ll be damned, as a Russia main player I got the chills by looking at the list Aussie Drongo made yesterday.
He has his youtube video here: The Age Of Empires 3 Improvement Checklist [AOE3] - YouTube

imagen

Calculating the list that he made i got the averages of each match with every civ, it shows British and Spain as the best favoured (38 pts), while it showed Russia as the absolute worst (28 pts).

It had more unfavorable matches than it had even matches, it doesn’t have any favored matches either (It’s the only civ like that).
imagen


So I’d like to dissect the list on Russia, why does he see it as the worst ever? (He didn’t explain his choices on the video).

Russia vs unfavorable civs

1)France
With all units having low HP, not even direct counters can survive as much against the cuirassier, so maybe that and the superior economy of the french is why he decided to make this as an unfavorable match.

2)Germans
Not sure about the economy, and the military units are kind of even, the only ones causing trouble are the war wagon and Skirmishers.

3)Inca
A rush civ vs a turtle civ, it was bound to go wrong.

4)Indians
Area damage mahouts and the superior gurkhas, hard to counter most of times.

5)Haudenosaunee
I rarely play against this civ, even less using Russia, so not very sure of how it has the edge…

6)Ottomans
The darn Jannisary rush kills me with any civ, so not sure what else to say, the abus guns wreck the strelets before they get too close.

7)Portuguese
The superior economy, stronger defenses, oprichnick slayer dragoons… shall I go on?

8)Spanish
Ufff, lancers could probably one-shot strelets, and rodeleros wont let cavalry do much at all.

9)Sweden
In age II they will certainly have a hassle, caroleans negate cavalry pushes, they can negate strelet or rusket masses by either setting caroleans to melee or shooting them with leather cannons, they also have hussars if you try to run hahah.
Other than that Russian oprichnicks should be able to raid well enough if caroleans aren’t fast enough to catch up to them, and it’s not like Sweden has a better economy than Russia


What do you guys think? It might need a buff after all

3 Likes

Interesting. From this perspective, russia seems indeed unfavored. For the record, this list was shared by Drongo but it was made with the input of a lot of top players.

I strongly dislike how you choose to calculate the favored/even/unfavored.
France for example has only one unfavorable matchup, while other faction with similar score have way more. I would be curious to see this table with - 2 unfavourable, 1 neutral and +2 favorable.

5 Likes

The advantage of the Haudenosaunee over the Russians, is the fact that they can handle good quality and cheap units very quickly (a Russian equivalent but native if you want to see it that way), and unlike the Russians, the Hauds have a better eco (more if there is a map with water). I against a Russian usually take only aenas and kanya riders and it is gg.

The problem is that if you improve the quality of the units or the eco of Russia, you are going to boost the Russian rush to irrational levels. Note that Dutch only got a 20% gold pickup increase and automatically transformed into an S civilization.

4 Likes

It was just a interpretation of the list they made, just an average over all…

Russia definitely is a weak civ that needs a boost, their weaknesses are on mid game unit options and counters to cav, it’s hard to determine how to buff them without making them OP, but I think buffing the cav archer would do it

I also think it’s interesting that Spain and brits are tied for best according to this, this is probably because they have lots of options available to them

2 Likes

What they need is a viable strat other than just blockhouse rush, even otto can do a ff not just double rax jans. It’s very easy to beat russia at higher level because you know exactly what will happen and how to counter it.

2 Likes

That is why the game is called “Age Of Musketeers” :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun:

2 Likes

they do fine vs some civs like japan, china and aztec i think. Against dutch also if there is a stage coach and agaisnt port if it is not a water map. I think cav archer and strelets need some sort of buff range (only for late game for the later).

1 Like

Thank you for bringing this post. I believe there are many posts about people asking for russia’s buff it is sad that it is being ignored but what can I say?

Now what I’m going to type here is from my own experience. I’ve played all kind of playstyles aggresive, defensive, Turtle, Treaty. And I played russia most of my time in AOE3. Currently using ports as they got a 20 range strelet basically.

I also want to point out that I will be mentioning Canons against some Matchups. however Having canons in your main army compo due to not having enough range. it makes your army compo a Nonmobile one due to canon being slow. Thus giving advantage over the one who has a stronger a much mobile one. To this we add that all asian civs have more than 26 range to deal with canons and very easily [Japan ( flaming arrows ), India (Siege Elephhants), China ( Hand mortars)]

Taking it from his own photo This is how I see every matchup on a high level gameplay.

Aztec

This one despite being equal Russia never has the superior army, and back when it was TAD I saw some toxic plays like lots of Eagle runners Plus a Hero with lots of HP, Eagle runners being 16 range, And russia having nothing past 16 range yikes.

If anything currently in DE I feel like aztec still has the superior army. A bad move from russia and you’re out. Unless you sit back wall then play the treaty game Which then russia has a much stronger eco than Aztec.

British:
Despite russia being able to win most games against Brits. It comes to a point where Brit’s musk/cav becomes too strong that russia just has nothing to deal against that Or if we talk about Longbows. Well Only hope is canon. But the longer that one goes the better it is if the brit player is smart.

China
This one is an interesteing one. Russia has lots of chances at winning but there is a moment where china gets too many different kind of units and a big skirm mass that russia gets not much to deal vs that. To this we add that china has mortars 34 range since Fortress leaving you with fewer options and if you try to play canon to kill his skirms the 34 range mortar makes it impossible. but then it becomes the same story of getting kited down.

Dutch:
I’ve played this matchup a couple of times. By rushing, Doing timing pushes, Ecoing or even making it a treaty one. Only result I’ve got is having to face 50 skirms and 50 ruyters and they still got POP left to build canons. What is good about this is that russia has no unit with 20 range to deal with Skirms/ruyters. And it becomes really easy for the Dutch player to switch between Ruyters/Husar while keeping a big skirm mass while russia has to constantly lose strelets for nothing which costs lots of food and only has 14 range. I’ve won a couple of games vs Dutch when I’ve made it a treaty one. pointing out that Dutch is lot stronger in DE too

France

To this I’ll add that you could try going strelet/cav archer but there is a moment where his skirm only eats all you have and that is a sad story. And in case you send it to later stages. If you lack walls Skirm/cuirs sh1ts on you

Germans

He said it himself. Skirm/Warwagon and russia has nothing against that. Like it is just sad plus wagons covering cannons due to size. @.@

INCA:
I haven’t had much success against this CIV and I myself had switched to INCA due to how IMBA it was playing against it. It is currently on a much healthier state but still a hard MU for russia

India
This one is a sad one. Only opportunity Russia has is by rushing but if india player defends correctly which they have access to ghurka and zamburak since commerce AGE. It then leaves russia without anything To this we add the Urumi/mahouts/Siege elephants and you’re in for a beat.

Haudenosaunee
I’ve played this lots of time. If I make it a treaty game Russia has lots of chances due to having stronger eco and factories. Other than that Iro has the advantage for most of the game as this Matchup also leaves russia being kited all game long. Due to lack of Range

Japanese
I would personally say that this is the only matchup where russia has any advantage whatsoever. But only if you rush. Because if you try to play fortress or any other build order. It is pretty much a guaranteed lose. And even Rushing if the japan player walls and defends properly. Welcome to being kited all game long.

Lakota
I had given the example where Skirm/cuirs sh1ts on you? Well this one requires lesser skill as Lakota has got strong cav and has a much more stronger early dominance than russia and I’ve encounter lakotas who have made 99 vills by containing the kiteable army russia has then wining through having a better moment. Even at a treaty you would need to get it to Imperial and all ups to have a chance against a really good Lakota player. And now we add to this that Lakota has access to mortars in V.
Other than that. in this MU russia suffers due to Lack of Range

Ottomans
This one is deadly. Here Russia always on the losing side. Like only moments you get any advantage is if the otto player gives them to you. Jan+mameluke kind of unstoppable. Abus+jan And russia gets kited all game long.

Portuguese
I love this one. I as a russia player never had good odds against Port. And now that I play mostly port I can say that russia has almost no chances at wining this Matchup unless something really bad happens. Here we get the same scenario where Russia gets kited all game long.

Russia mirror we all know how it goes

Spanish
This is just another sad story. Spain much more stronger army. Rod+lancer eats all of russia. Skirm+goon or skirm+rod and there isn’t much to do as russia. Here we can also say that in case were both players are good. Russia ends up being kited most of the game.

Sweden

You know despite sweden having gotten some nerf. It is an undeniedable truth that Caroleans have 15 Range and strelet 14 at Fortress. Other than that Carolean mass + canons and as Sweden have a bigger momentum due to TORPS Caroleans + mamelukes and russia has got no answer.

USA
After USA got released I haven’t played any russia Can’t comment much on this one. But pretty sure Russia has a hard time on this one too. Just from using the civ for so long.

Thoughts
Now that I’ve talked about must Matchups Russia can have. I can say the following one common thing that happens in all of them is that Russia Should rush most of the time or go for timings but even if those 2 fails you are left with no other strat as Russia has too many weak units to make a proper army composition.

Most of the time that I’ve played russia I had to either get it to a 99 vill game with walls and hoping the player made mistakes or I was lucky and I could control map and player had no more resources left
But in DE most maps have enough resources to stay in base for much longer so that option can be discarded most of the time.

I have been one to say the following.
Give strelet the option to scale into 20 range into imperial. They currently have 14 range commerce. They could go 16 range fortress, 18 industrial, 20 imperial. This changes the unit to useful instead of inneficient.

After seeing this guy suggestion I could even say that we can add +2 range to strelets with Boyar card, +2 range with Strelet combat as these 2 cards are always needed when using strelets. And moving the Imperial range +2 to industrial thus allowing strelets to be better by Industrial rather than Imperial. This is just a suggestion.

Or if the strelet range is too much it would break the unit, [ Bear in mind that it is only range buff, No stat change whatsoever ] Then I’ve suggested going for 20 range skirms by Fortress

The skirms could be the same way russia has musk and halbs. They are 20% weaker than their original counterparts And allow strelet/musk cards to affect Skirms

Why skirms or 20 range strelet? And I truly believe in what I’m typing

  • There is no amount of early buff to Russia’s early game or early eco to make them a stronger Rush civ that would make them viable unless breaking them and making them too powerful. But then it still leaves the issue of russia not having any unit besides cannons with more than 14 range. And some matchups you’ll end up getting kited again.
  • There have been suggestions for russia to have strelet become food/coin. Having skirms fixes this
  • Russia in most matchups if you get against a good player who can micro and knows what he is doing you’re most of the time going to get kited down [ Having 20 range skirm by Fortress fixes this issue and opens door for russia to become a Fast Fortress civ ]
  • The moment russia gets skirms. Their cav archer will shine more as it is good the way it is already. It has good DPS when killing cav. And you can just place a layer of wall then go for that skirm+cav archer in case a player has too many hand cav. I say this one because against Skirm/Cuirs If you do strelet/Cav archer you’re just going to get kited and killed. And having skirms for russia opens the door of having to force the france player to be the one to go closer.

In reality russia suffers most by mid game where there is just not a single unit to properly use against most army comp of other civs. And in the lategame against good players. Because all of russia’s army are inneficient

Since russia has to go close to win fights they usually get kited or have to take bad fights which if they had better units then it could be in the favor of russia

I’m one to say that Russia with a longer range unit instantly becomes S tier. Most matchups that are horrible become playable and those that were hard become easier.

If it is too OP as some would complain Then let the change take effect and if it becomes too powerful there is always the option to revert changes. They have done it multiple times within AOE3DE taking Advanced fortification as an example for this. Where they brought it to see how it would affect the game and ended up removing it due to how OP it allowed defensive playstyle to be. Or in the same way they added 7 cows for every Euro civ and removed it off ports due to it being too efficient for them

5 Likes

That list has its own faults, Personally I don’t see it as credible, as it claims to be, by the first look.

1 Like

They need a honeypot shipment in age3 that will give them a nice economic boost for later. Otherwise Russia will just strelet rush.

1 Like

Interesting change, could be like the Aztec mining card, but instead added to the strelet combat card (20%+attack).
If range is considered at least, could be added here too, even for a small coin cost.

1 Like

They are so UP that both lose

3 Likes

Russia and Ottomans are bad man. These two civs are important civs than Sweeden, Spain, and Portugal. I hope devs give some love to these civs.

Aussie isnt fact. I dont agree for example Russia being unfavorable against Ottomans I think they are pretty even. And I definatly dont agree with Russia being unfavorable against Spain and Portugal.

I mean yes Ottoman janissary rush is something strong. But Russia can pull it off to counter it. Your skirmishers are pretty cheap just pray for no abus and spahi. Otherwise maybe some musketeers and cav archers in the mix and try to fast age up.

Opprichs arent that good so Portugal being able to kill them with dragoons doesnr say much. The Portugueze “good economy” is purely them getting their settlers faster through more town centers, yet Russia can easily do the same and their 3 settler groups would do better or not that much worse atleast. Unit roster of Portugal doesnt really have hard counters against Russia. I have played treaty games as Russia against Portugal and wasnt that hard at all. Strelet with Musket spam did the trick together with horse artillery.

Spanish lancers are a bit of a problem, but cav archers are good enough, so adding those in your composition would also do the trick. Seeing Russia is able to spam their units having enough forward bases and keeping up the fort spam with musks would also do the trick for against Spain. Rodelro will get countered by Strelet.

3 Likes

It’s Aussie with input from several skilled players (Minimoult21, Lecastete, Skirmisher1380, Perez, Kaister and SirCallen). So sure it’s no fact, but it comes from people with a somewhat good understanding of the game.

And sorry my friend, I have nothing against you and you are propably a nice lad, but you lost every credibility when you refered to your experience in treaty with Russia against Portugal…

Comparing the Russian bonus with the Port bonus is ill advised. While they may have similar effects, the way they work is fundamentally different.
Ports get a free 10 pop every age up, that means they need to chop less wood. It also means the new TC can jump into action pomping out villagers. Since they require slightly less wood, 2-3 villagers can go on hunts/food, and port has pretty good gather rates for food (baseline bonus on hunt, church upgrades on mill).

Russia not so much. They can only queue a batch when they have all 3 slots available, and this requires extra wood, which means fewer villagers on food, which means you cannot pomp out as easy as ports. While russian villagers cost less (90 instead of 100), ports already offset this through better gather rate and can even ship medicine.

Military wise, ports have the best dragoons in the game. And those dragoons can easily beat all the cav units that Russia can produce (cossaks are the bread and butter of russia army), and cannon can handle strelets. Even organ guns perform decently against strelets.

Russia does have a chance if they rush. However, a double TC minuteman essentially holds off anything.

3 Likes

All of this true.

It seems like you haven’t played against TOP treaty players. Russia is considered bottom tier while port is top 3. Russia’s army is inneficient in the late game.

This is another Hard matchup in treaty. Russia has 0 chances with those 10 priest on the spanish side. Cav archers can’t kill those priest they move fast. Your cav archers die so fast to 80 damage skirms that it is insane. You try to win culverin war and his culvs are stronger. It is very hard to win vs Spanish in treaty using russia.

4 Likes

Lancers absolutely dominate Russia, cav arch isn’t a great option because

  1. Russia is a prolonged age 2 civ, Spain is an ff civ that’s power is that it can ff and defend most early rushes at the same time, so you’ll see lancers much earlier than you’ll see cav archers

  2. The Russian composition can’t beat the Spainish one
    Russian comp, strelet, cav arch, maybe musk, Cossack,
    Spainish comp, rods, lancer, skirm
    The Cossacks and cav arch melt to rods from my experience, and the Russian infantry melts to lancers, the skirms are also going to be strong against cav archer, even more than a normal ranged cav as cav archers don’t have ranged resist.

Portugal vs Russia is also a bad mu

Portuguese economy is only part of the reason, Russian economy for the first 7-8 minutes is comparable, Portugal will out scale eventually, but that alone isn’t why it’s a bad mu

The reason it’s a bad MU is because of Portugal being able to leverage their second tc to survive Russian rush, how does a timing attack do against Portugal?

The Russian timing attack is your best bet, if Portugal sends CM it won’t work though.

How about boom vs boom?

Russia can get 3 tc in age 3 if they ff, Portugal gets theirs for free however so Russia will naturally be behind 1000 wood, Russian boom can still get villagers a little faster, but Russian units don’t fare well because their units are just bad.

4 Likes

I think one small buff would be to allow russia to queue the 3 villigers without having 3 pop slots and just not spawn them until pop is available. Like ottomans.