You and I have a very different definition of “sane.” I do not consider people who get all up in arms trying to protect people who don’t want protecting to be sane. The vast majority of people do not care about political correctness. It is the internet being an echo chamber that gives that impression.
I am reasonable about most things. I get the strong impression you’re not, given your behavior towards me just for expressing a different opinion.
I think that having Hindustani in the game means that for India we have separate civilizations but there is still an umbrella civilization too. This is especially noticeable in Russian version, where their name literally sounds like “those who live on the Hindustan Peninsula.” Ideally, the division of Indian civilizations could continue.
You do realise you’re saying this while using the phrase “political correctness” to police the opinions that other posters have on civ names in AoE II? You’re saying their argument is rooted in whatever you think “political correctness” is, and is therefore unacceptable.
Don’t you see the irony?
I don’t get why folks can’t debate changing the name without inserting these buzzphrases and labels into it. If you disagree, just say you disagree. No need for arguments about what you think “political correctness” is. Just say “nah I prefer the Saracens”. If there’s an etymological argument, then great! Use that 
While I think Saracens, native American names etc should be changed to better reflect their culture, my intention is not one of being “morally correct” but rather to be truthful and because I don’t see reasons to insult someone for free. So despite I agree with “political correctness” this time is mostly by accident. Political correctness is just a new form of western colonialism, it’s deeper and more subtle in the style of postmodernity but it’s nothing but pure colonialism. Fascism is not an historical relic, it’s a way of thinking that can take different shapes.
So I rarely stand completely on one side but in this case @Apocalypso4826 has my total respect. Keep fighting for what you believe and never wear uniforms. This is the true spirit of liberalism in Kant’s words: have the courage to think for yourself instead of relying on an authority, being it a religion, an ideology, a ruler etc. It doesn’t mean you’re always right if you use your head, quite the opposite, you accept the fact you could be wrong but you are while being true to yourself. You cannot be right or wrong if you just bow your head to whoever asks you to do it (it’s a way to hide yourself from the risk of taking responsibility for being wrong, in this case “offensive”), you’re just following orders and that’s what politically correctness asks you to do: do not assume, just believe the “victim” (the western colonialist disguising as one). I think history will eventually tell you who were the liberal ones and who were not, more often in a painful way unfortunately.
And that’s it for me cause we’re not allowed to talk about politics here.
This definition can apply to ““political correctmess””, as well as any kind of any accepted social norms, like expecting people to be clean, to wear clothes, or to treat each other respectfully.
Saying that is almost as bad as fascism is silly.
I’m not trying to police anyone’s speech. I’m trying to get them to see that most people simply don’t care about this stuff, and if the groups in question don’t find offense, why should they? I don’t want them to waste time and effort causing unnecessary upheaval and controversy trying to address a problem that’s only perceived in their minds and isn’t real. It’s better to devote their energy to things that actually matter.
It’s 2024. No one can do anything online without involving buzzwords. Everything is extremely polarized, and everyone is an enemy of each other.
There are some social norms that exist for the benefit of society, such as respect and the rule of law. I’m not talking about those. Other social norms are totally arbitrary and exist for silly reasons, so I tend to ignore those, because I don’t care what people think. People might think I’m weird, but there aren’t any ramifications for not following them.
There are other social norms, like political correctness, that are essentially forced on everyone using shame and harassment to destroy the lives of anyone who doesn’t comply. The difference between these and the first kind is that these don’t exist for any good reason; they just exist because someone decided that something was an issue and wanted to force others to police their own behavior through extreme guilt-tripping.
So while it isn’t exactly fascism, it is a form of authoritarianism by trying to force people to follow arbitrary rules, with extreme consequences if they don’t. The quote is somewhat exaggerated, being Mr. Carlin was a comedian, but I think he was essentially right in the same kind of societal consequences being present. And that was back then. It’s gotten much worse now.
Again, that’s what you’re doing by calling things “political correctness”.
Why can’t you just debate the topic? I’ve learned some pretty cool stuff about the term Saracen going through this thread. I don’t know enough to contribute on that (my spare time reading has been mostly Greek mythology and Wikipedia-ing my way through the Middle East and India, but I’ve skipped the Crusades as we cover them a lot historically in school), but I figured I’d stop to point out that “devoting energy to things that actually matter” is just another way you’re saying “my things I’m complaining about matter, but the other things people complain about don’t matter”.
Uhhhh okay I guess theres no point talking this anymore since we arent going anywhere.
I think you are really overreacting and exagerating. In general I think the extent of political correctness is exagerated to the extreme when its often very mild.
In this case I dont mind them staying as saracens because its been likevthis for a long time but its still weird to have such an unclear term that was almost an slur at the time to represent whats basically the Arabs. It would be clearer if it was the arabs. Its a perfwctly normal thing to ask even if I dont think its needed
Also almost all laws and values are arbitrary outside of those about someone’s phisical wellbeing
I’m really just calling a spade a spade. Don’t make me out to be crazy for doing that.
There’s nothing to debate unless you really want to get into political correctness. I think that’s the main reason people want to change it.
No, I’ll be the first to admit that most of the things I do don’t really matter. But at least I don’t spend a lot of my time online trying to convince people of made-up problems.
I might be, but the thing is, I’m extremely resistant to change, especially unnecessary change. This applies to everything, from the inconsequential to the life-changing.
People’s lives are being ruined even just for things they DIDN’T say. This is actually a hugely pervasive problem, which is why I’m talking about it.
I disagree, but that’s due to my own personal beliefs, which obviously you wouldn’t share, so there’s no point discussing that.
I feel like this thread derailed from its original topic. Unless you all get back to the OT, I will close this thread.
Considering the original thread was intended to be inflammatory, I recommend just closing it.
I dislike the name Saracen not because it’s insulting (it’s so remote that the original meaning is ambiguous and irrelevant now), but because it is an all-encompassing exonym.
The word in medieval usage simply means “Muslims” and it is not a good name for an AOE faction.
In the game it refers to “all Levantine Muslims that are not Turkish or Persian”. It covers Arabia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc. and multiple peoples and political entities, each of which justifies as its own faction. From the Middle East to East Asia, westerners used to be all called “Franks”. Would you like all Western European civs in the game to be bundled into one “Franks” civ?
The civ used to also cover Berbers, but now Berbers are separated out. So the term also overlaps with other civs the same way as “Slavs” after Poles and Bohemians are added.
Exactly, it’s often understated when discussing about umbrella civs how huge Saracens are.
The current Saracens covers the fertile cresent, the arabian penninsula, egypt and possibly lybia.
There at least 3 distinct civs in that region that are kinda rolled into one - mostly iraq plus a sprinkle of saladin. The people of all these regions DO fall under the category of arabs so the proposal makes sense.
Personally, I’d be interested in a more extensive civ split just to add some more material.