Should Bulgarians get Champion or Any Buff?

i suggest some buff for infantry-line of bulgarians
For reasons read my comments
Buff ideas:
1-bagains cheaper, +1 pierce armor +5 melee
2-champion available, bagains +3 , champion upgrade not free.
3-bagains +3, bagains affects all infantry units(pikes-militias-unmounted konnik)
4-bagains give +1(or +2) armor to halbs and unmounted konnik
5-give crossbow

Not when they have Bagains. Bagains already makes them beat almost every Champion in the game.

I proposed this before as well.
But given the massive buff Bulgarians have received, this is not desirable without nerfing elsewhere.

i said reduce bagan bonus to +3 and give champion, and champion not free. bulgarian champions beating only generic champion really :slight_smile: and viking but very close

So your plan is for Bulgarian to get Teuton champion with +1 melee armour? That would suck. It’s pretty nice that there is a civ that can be an infantry and cavalry civ without needing champion+paladin.


but bagains don’t affect pikeman like teutons. you are right +3 will be op. but teuton getting it free. bulgarians need a castle and a cost like paladin upgrade. and teutonic champion getting +1 on castle as well

All the worse, it would make the tech truely really bad when compared to the Teuton bonus.

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I have to agree with Cactus, it is pretty nice to have a civ that use 2-handers and not just Champs.
Bulgarians and Malay both have 2-handers that can rival Champs in cost efficiency, so it is pretty unique and varied as it is now.


maybe a different buff but definitely need rework. reduce bagains to +2 and champion upgrade free too ? how this is

But it is already so good as it is now. This is not change to actually do anything for civ, only to tick more boxes on the Tech Tree.

this buff was not a big buff i think. still any pro not playing with them.
they haven’t paladin, so it can’t even compare with frank, teuton, lithuanian paladins. yes it gets %33 faster attack but even generic paladin can kill ! and militia-line worst of all other infantry civs, only they can win against generic champions. no eco bonus (-%50 stone only). a lot of civ need buff, this one too. concept of them looks like everything cheap or free civ, not strong units. pros not will choose these civs and they will be stay on shadow forever, when we won’t discuss. i don’t want new civs cause of that
Slavs- great UT for both halb and champs
Aztecs- +4 attack all infantry
burmese- +3 but every age for infantry
japanese- %33 faster attack for–>infantry<— both halb and champ
teutons- total +2 armor for infantry for free. bonus for both castle and imp
and bulgarians- +5 armor only for Ths, also saving 300f 100g on imp :smiley: /only slightly good against generic champions
very good infantry civ ! and haven’t paladin as a cavalry civ

I don’t see a problem getting +4 melee armor for Champs. Aztecs have +4 attack so…


i understand what you want to mean here. Aztec only infantry civ also good monks. they main focus is infantry. aztec’s infantry should be best infantry. bulgarians cav and militia-line civ. but both of them not good :stuck_out_tongue: also don’t forget bulgarians only have bonus on militia-line. other infantry civs’s have better both champ and pike

They don’t need Champions. Two-handed swordsmen are cheap trash killers. That’s the main role of the militia line. Said civ gets nearly the whole militia line for free. That’s a huge bonus. Even without this armor tech they are already great.

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You know stuff happens before imperial age right?

I think Bagains should get a buff, probably a price reduction.
Extra pierce armour could be added too, or extra damage, or something like that.

It currently feels like the main benefits the Bulgarian militia-line gives are free M@A, and that it’s “faster” to research Bagains than to upgrade the militia line, but this is only the case if you have already got a castle.

Given that Bagains 2HS aren’t much more useful than generic Champions (though both units are useful, Champions have better damage-output and pierce-resistance), the Bagains UT should be significantly cheaper than the Champion upgrade imo.

But giving Bulgarians Champions would just be inelegant.


okay, cavalary is “ok” but infantry line not ok

good idea and give some bonuses to pike-line can be good not only militia-line. also you saying champ+bagains will be op but i want bagains+3, not +5 and champ upgrade not free

i m trying to say that two-handed swords+bagains not good than generic champions. but every other infantry civ’s have great militia-line. only bonus of bulgarians is save a little food, gold and faster research bonus already a faster researchable tech.

free militia-line not a very good bonus actually, it is only useful for m&a. 600f300g save until imperial age not a big deal, already we don’t use champions %70 of games, not a real save.
also THS+bagains worse than generic champions as a trash killer. when think other civs’s bonus it is very weak as a trash killer. less hp, skirms and arbs can kill more easy when trying to kill halbs or skirms

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Buff ideas:
1-bagains cheaper, +1 pierce armor +5 melee
2-champion available, bagains +3 , champion upgrade not free.
3-bagains +4(or +3), bagains affects all infantry units(pikes-militias)
4-bagains give +1(or +) armor to halbs**