Should melee infantry have melee range and stagger mode? (+Poll)

While making a comment from this thread:

Thought I’d make a side topic on hand infantry, hope it reaches the developers.


:arrow_forward: *Snort, Ackchuallyyy :point_up: :nerd_face:

Summary

Let me start by nerding out with the history.

Before gunpowder, hand infantry (and primarily spearmen) were the core of any army, they were easy to muster and train with cheap to produce weapons (big pointy sticks). They repelled cavalry charges in tight formations, served as cannon fodder for ranged archers, and then pushed on melee with the enemy spearmen, everyone used them.

But everything changed, when the fire nation attacked, almost literally.

With the rise of gunpowder (year 1300 forward), ranged weapons and technology became the core of any army up to this day, same reason why martial arts are mostly for sport or entertainment now (By the Napoleonic era, melee was reserved for cavalry or when you ran out of bullets).

So it was logical for hand infantry to be less and less used as the ages progressed, with “spears” becoming an “accessory” to ranged infantry (musketeers adopted it through the bayonet) JUST LIKE IN AOE3.


:arrow_forward: An alternative to rebalancing stats :scientist:

Summary

imagen

Most games I’ve had (In like 5000 hours since 2005) have gone the same way; Both players use heavy hand infantry to counter and siege in early ages, only to switch to dragoons and artillery from age 3 (covering both of the pike’s strenghts).

Why not invest in hand infantry going forward? well…

  • As the technologies pile up, they get even more out-ranged before contact (Especially by artillery, more on that later).
  • They are not as tanky or fast as cavalry (Unlike samurai, let’s focus on the rest for now).
  • Melee masses don’t allow the units behind to attack, so “underkill” happens, unlike with ranged units (happens with cavalry too, but they have better stats anyway).
  • Since they are “archaic”, some civs need politicians or cards to research past the veteran upgrade (The game doesn’t want you to use them :rofl:).

With all that in mind, somewhat “recently”, standard pikemen and german Doppelsoldners got an special buff, where they got EXTRA MELEE RANGE.

imagen
Starts with 2 range and get´s up to 3,5 in imperial upgrade; might seem like nothing, but it let’s them attack with 3 rows of pikes at a time (Instead of 2, with micro), catch sneaky cavalry and make contact before “non-melee-purposed” infantry.

Usually (in smaller groups), I use the “defend mode” to mike a tight pikemen formation to attack with all of them at once at a specific target, but extra range would achieve that more naturally (You’d still need to get close to pile them up, but not DIRECTLY ON TOP like currently).

imagen
Starts with 1 range and get’s up to 2 range with the Zweihänder church tech.

Made sense they included this one, since the “Zweihänder” is what they called their LARGE 2 handed sword, which is also shared by the Landsknecht, but the Landsknecht itself, doesn’t.

Really, as far as I searched, none of the other melee units get extra range from using large weapons, and sometimes it’s arbitrary (Chinacos and Lancers use lances, but only lancers need a card to get 1 range).


:arrow_forward: The “nowhere near as used as it should be” stagger mode :man_shrugging:

Summary

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Not so staggered formation (Rerepost)

I touched on this in the past, and it actually got dev attention, and got fixed! HURRAY, except… not fully.

It still stops staggering units when you have more than 30 of them in a single selection (Counted them again), BUT, at least it doesn’t reduce the space between them lower than in volley mode.

But other than the persistent bug, the extra reason why hand infantry isn’t as useful past age 3, is because they get DEMOLISHED by artillery, as they should, but there is no counter-measure for this.

  • Escaping or advancing hand infantry can’t use the “stagger mode” stance.
  • Moving staggered skirmishers with non staggered pikemen “UN-staggers” everyone in the formation.

This is probably why the stagger mode isn’t as visible in multiplayer, as every unit in the formation needs to be staggered for it to work (Explorer too, I always set it on stagger mode at the start of every match so it doesn’t mess with the formation).

I guess I’m the only one using it.


:arrow_forward: The “hopefully valid” request :crossed_fingers:

In 4 lines, they’d be:

  • Add extra range for the HAND INFANTRY units that it makes the most sense to (Swiss Pikemen, halberdiers, spearmen…).
  • Add extra range for the HAND CAVALRY units that it makes the most sense to (Lancers, Lifidi Knights, Tokala soldiers…).
  • Fix the staggered mode to include the maximum selection (From 30 to 95).
  • Add the staggered mode for EVERY unit (Probably should include artillery, maybe not idk).

This way, hand infantry should be more friendly to use up until the mid industrial age while also promoting the use of stances and formations to get ahead in the battles.


:arrow_forward: Let your opinion be heard! :incoming_envelope:

To keep a better track of the opinions on this (Unlike in hundreds of singular comments), here is a poll:

Should more melee units get extra range?
  • I think units with long melee weapons should have more range.
  • I think they are fine as they are.
  • I didn’t like the range buff on pikemen, I’d like it to go away.
0 voters

And…

How often do you use stagger mode?
  • I use it every match, whenever I need to.
  • I rarely remember to use it.
  • There is a stagger mode?
0 voters

Aaand…

Should artillery have the stagger mode?
  • Yes, I want that QOL feature.
  • No, It’d be too overpowered, just separate them with micro.
0 voters

Long post, but It’s fun to research this :sweat_smile:

1 Like

Many words, good stuff. I like my pokey units in all stages of the game. I can’t stand the melee switch delay on musketeers, I prefer the speed and instant attack of the melee infantry.

2 Likes

Yeah :sweat_smile:
I know I make the equivalent of a portfolio every time I make a post, but I like to be precise :3

Just added to the dictionary :ok_hand:

1 Like

I like them pike to have more range, I notice melee unit in Aoe3 bump with each other more often, than Hoplites in AoM. Path finding issue maybe?

Imperial Pokeyman

2 Likes

One thing that’s missing from the long reach melee units is a proper display in the UI. It’s hard to keep track of when you can’t even see how the stat improves with upgrades.

When it comes to melee range I think there should be a tiered approach.

Default Reach:

  • Infantry with swords, bayonets, javelins, clubs, etc.

Extra Reach: (+0.5?)

  • Spearmen (Plumed Spearmen, Puma Spearmen, Sohei Naginata)
  • Axe Polearms (Halberdiers, Poruchik, Trabant, Papal Guard)
  • Big swords (Doppelsöldners, Landsknechts)

Long Reach: (+1.5?)

  • Pikemen (Pikemen, Qing Pikemen, Swiss Pikemen)

The extra range should also be available by default rather than linked to the unit upgrades. Or at least start out with some extra reach by default and have a slight upgrade through a card or Arsenal/Church tech. And any upgrades to reach should also have an accompanying visual change to the length of the weapon. As it is I think Imperial Pikemen can attack further than their pike reaches.

For cavalry, there’s isn’t any good way to organize them since they aren’t really categorized by weapon at all. Lancer type units all have polearms, but so do a ton of non-lancers (Lifidis, etc), pseudo-lancers (Naginata, etc) and other cavalry (Russian Cavalry Archers). And there are units like Uhlans that should have a lance but don’t. I think the best that could be done would be to give lancer type units a little extra reach but leave the others as is.

4 Likes

True that, it’s a bit of an arbitrary decision to which units should have more or less range, but if I had a say on it, Pikemen would have:

  • 3 range by default.
  • 4 range in veteran.
  • 5 range guard.
  • 6 range in imperial.

Maybe a bit radical (And goon kiting will be more of a challenge), but it hasn’t been tested as much, so once implemented, range could be a new point of melee unit balance next to other stats as HP or damage (Also making the melee units much more fun to use).

Yeah, it’s as weird as seeing AI muskets using melee on far away hussars :sweat_smile:

So upgrades should also include the longer pikes; quick side-note, pikemen used to wield pikes of 3 to 6 meters in lenght (Or more), while the game’s pikemen seem to use at most 2,5 meters.

Maybe devs would have them standing upright like halberdiers, so the longer pikes won’t hit the ground in the animation.

1 Like

As for the current Poll numbers…

This… this hurts to watch, even in casted games from high ELO legends, I don’t get to see much use of formations.
(At least everyone knows they exist)

For everyone learning to use them:

  • Melee stances can sometimes do more damage than range ones, check the unit’s DPS.

  • Stagger formation can help units survive area of effect damage, and spreading them can even reduce overkill in attack move.

  • Some special units have different stats depending on the stance, like Nizam fusiliers.

  • Trample mode can sometimes end battles faster against very damaged units, almost like shooting a cannon volley against them.
    (Stampede mode is supposed to function similarly, but I’ve seen less success with it)

  • Defend mode can make tighter formations to facilitate pathing and make more units attack in a smaller area (Like a spanish square).

  • If your opponent keeps taunting your units to break formation, the stand ground stance can stop them from moving.

  • Stealth mode… isn’t used much, but if your opponent has a very watchful eye against raids, this could be one way to counter that.

  • Cover mode is tricky to use, it gives high double type armor, but halves your movement speed and attacks, so you need to weight the pros and cons by the situation (Pro tip: Rams only get reduced movement speed, but attack remains the same, so close in on the desired building and set them on cover mode to attack).

1 Like
  • I find stagger mode often doesn’t actually work and they can even clump up more if there isn’t space to spread out so it’s quite problematic.

  • Trample mode is pretty much universally bad.

  • Cover mode is almost too strong if microed well. For example, individually switching units targeted by TC fire can make a massive difference.

3 Likes

I just say that there was ONE usefull use for defensive mode and it was removed from the unit for no reason, ah yes, it wasnt ottoman, it was aztec

1 Like

I sometimes use trample mode, but from what I see its best use is by making only 3 hussar use it regarding the size of group wether it is 10 or 20 or more, also only activate it once they reach the enemies, not before. Stampede mod I notice similar to the truck cheat unit, and in that mode the Royal Horseman can also damage building by moving

1 Like

It’s certainly got it’s uses, but as it is, it’s kinda limited; the extra damage they receive back was recently reduced, but they should just remove it entirely.

Yeeeeah, I don’t recomend using that stampede stance under any circumstance, it feels like devs just added it without testing it at all.
Heck, they even have a negative multiplier to a bunch of stuff, making it even worse than it already is.

If you are using hussars, you can get them on trample mode sometimes, but if you are using royal horsemen (Or royal dragoons), just use the default aoe damage they do, never use stampede mode (The same goes for elephants or cuirassiers, the extra aoe isn’t worth using trample mode on them).

(The animation and sfx are pretty cool tho ngl)

I mostly made the poll to see what everyone else thought, but I wonder… would developers ever use this as a reference? Or at least “put a pin on it” to give it a second thought at balancing?

I mean, it’s not a whole lot of people, 27 voters in 9 days, but it’s still most of the active forum posters…

Yo, devs, drop a hint for this humble poster, do polls matter at all?.

imagen

1 Like