Siege Current Situation //proposal changes

[Lam]

Ok we have a serious problem with the siege now they dont have a real counter, is extremely difficult to deal with them coz springards doesnt affect they (u need 3,4 or 7 shots, depends it is mangonel or a great bombard and with a bunch of vills u cant repair the mangonel or canon, at the final the canons and mangonels are imposible to kill).

So, I propose this changes, because comeback to the springards is horrible, nobodies like this antisiege system.

First, reduce the splash damage of the great bombard for two reasons, now they dont have counter and a historical reason THE GREAT BOMBARDS NEVER WERE USE AGAINST UNITS ONLY AGAINST WALLS, FORTS and SHIPS cos those canons were not accurate tended to miss the shots for almost 100 meters, is not real use the bombards against infantery or cav troops.

Ok the changes we can apply all of them or start with some of them:

A.- Reduce the armor and life of the mangonels and great bombard for examen in aoe2 or WC3 u can destroy a mangonel or canon with 30 archer shots or 15 gunpower shots. The actual situation is: only boring mangonel + gunpower unit + culverin that only benefits few civs and u can clearly can watch it on this game (go to the minute 44:00 of the Farm Man Official - Age Of Empires 4 title “2,162 Warriors Were KIL***” on youtube)

B.- Another way to counter the mangonel is reduce the damage amount against cav or infantery but I seriously said “reduce” that they gonna do 1 or 2 damage against cav and infantery (Mangonels, Great Bombards too )

C.- Create the “ally fire”, the splash damage reduce the life of your soldiers so in short range u can’t abuse blocking the enemy units cos of course ur units gonna be hurt.

[GoldenArmorX]

@Lam

A.- Reduce the armor and life of the mangonels and great bombard for examen in aoe2 or WC3 u can destroy a mangonel or canon with 30 archer shots or 15 gunpower shots.

1).- No, I don’t agree.

The change of the Springald was made precisely to prevent the Springald from destroying the Bombards easily in Imperial Age, and therefore “Extend” even more the time that the Post-Imperial wars take in any game.

Reducing the HP of Mangonels and Bombards would literally be “going back” to what the patch achieved.

Also, by having more attack speed, the Springalds are now “Useful” against ranged units, which makes sense since in theory they are “ranged siege weapons” they should be able to destroy archers easily, which they now do.

Also, you can amass many springald to still one-shot a mango or bombard. The only problem is the Great Bombard, whic only happens to ONE CIV, the Ottomans, but that already has its own topic, join the thread if you want to comment: Why the ##### is ottoman not nerfed?

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@Lam

B.- Another way to counter the mangonel is reduce the damage amount against cav or infantery but I seriously said “reduce” that they gonna do 1 or 2 damage against cav and infantery (Mangonels, Great Bombards too )

2).- No, I don’t think that’s would be a solution, not even historically and it don’t even look good.

If a cannonball hit you, you die, it doesn’t matter if you are cavalry or infantry. Another thing is that the cavalry has a greater advantage in avoiding bullets and cannons because it is always moving, but only the Cavalry.

– Example: That an Elite Men-at-arm Post Imperial receives only 1 damage per bombard, it would be the same as seeing a men-at-arm receive 218 cannonballs without falling to the ground, that would be “* UNPLEASANT*” to see.

– “Problem that already happens in the AoM”: In fact, it is one of the “Problems” of the Age of Mythology: With siege that is unable to do minimal damage to military units, and only to buildings, and you find absurdities like a unit that is hit by a Rain of stones from siege units, and continues walking like “Peter in his house” (spanish expression). It is worse to see when a “Behemoth”, the creature that is supposed to be a living tank, is not able to kill a villager or a hoplite, because or hell: it has siege damage. Hopefully this will be corrected for the Remake “Retold”.

Maybe, Light cavalry can be given “percentage” siege armor, but only 10,20,30%, but NOT to reduce 99% as mithology, please NOT.

@Lam

C.- Create the “ally fire”, the splash damage reduce the life of your soldiers so in short range u can’t abuse blocking the enemy units cos of course ur units gonna be hurt.

3).- No, I don’t think it will be implemented:

Because we’ve gotten used in AoE IV to using siege without fear of Ally Fire since season one, (or even since The Beta), doing ally fire like in AoE2 would simply make most people stop building siege, or worse: that we simply “Let’s stop playing the game”.

Also, that will not prevent mangonels from being used, but only people who master the MICRO quite well, use them, and Abuse them, leaving those who don’t in the minor leagues, therefore you are not solving the problem, but Creating another".

Perhaps it can only be implemented if the allied fire is not “Total”, and only does, say, 10% or 20% allied fire, like happens in many RPG in real times games, with some AoE techniques.

Maybe try it in a PUP, before making it official, because it sounds quite drastic to me.

[kingchris200]

Seige needs a nerf all around and limit how many u can have. Except rams are fine.

[Alpha-087]

@kingchris200

Seige needs a nerf all around and limit how many u can have. Except rams are fine.

I agree. The bombard spam is getting very old very fast

[Lam]

“2).- No, I don’t think that’s would be a solution, not even historically and it don’t even look good.”
If we gonna talk about “historically” the game is over hahaha we are gonna talking about ballance the game; historically nobodies use mangonels against a bunch of troops, they use mangonels to cause terror in a siege town; the only real weapon used against troops were curiosly the springard hahaha. The masive use of canons were later in 1700. In the feudal age Canons were too expensive to produce so, usually the armies only have a few of them (very few between 3 o 5 canon pieces) The constantinopla siege only had 12 Great bombards and 7000 soldiers; ottomans try to use the canons to destroy the wall and they can’t achieve the goal, the anecdotal of this siege is… a guard forgot to close the gate and the ottoman army enter for the gate lol.

“Maybe, Light cavalry can be given “percentage” siege armor, but only 10,20,30%, but NOT to reduce 99% as mithology, please NOT.”
And what u gonna do against the ottomans? Cos Jenissaries is a real issue against the calvary they shot and no need to move, the spearmen has to follow the knights and u can find a hole to destroy the canons/mangonels but not against the jannisaries

3 “Because we’ve gotten used in AoE IV to using siege without fear of Ally Fire since season one, (or even since The Beta ), doing ally fire like in AoE2 would simply make most people stop building siege”

Man thats the solution, we want that people stop abusing to mangonels.

So for u what is the solution?

[GoldenArmorX]

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@Lam

If we are going to talk about “historically” the game is over hahaha we are going to talk about ballance the game;

Well, by history I was referring to the “Historical Simile” or at least the basic representation that is expected for which there is a certain suspension of disbelief:

• Useful Crossbows vs. Armored Units, good Spearmans vs. Cavalry, and so on. At least I think that any unit should do “some damage” to another unit, except in cases where they were invulnerable (Plate Armor vs. Arrows, usually this armor repels all arrows, so it’s good that the Heavy Armor Units are very resistant to archers ).

• In the case of cavalry vs mangonels, at least for the moment the cavalry have the advantage of being able to dodge their shots while moving.

• But, in the case of cavalry vs cannons, with faster shots, I don’t think they would survive a direct cannonball if they aim well.
  → Of course, in the game it should not translate to dying from one shot, but neither does it mean that the horseman would be invincible aggainst siege and receive 1 damage per shot, we need to respect certain “suspension of disbelief”, or if not, this would be another problem, not historically, but of aesthethic in the list to resolve (More Fauna, Different Polearms for Spearman per civ, etc)

• Let’s look at AoE3 where things are more balanced: the cavalry can withstand 2, 3 or 4 cannon shots but it’s not like they get 1 damage per shot.

• Again, Your solution of reduce the damage the cavalry receive for siege “is good”, but the only thing i discrepe is the quantity, but nothing more.

@Lam

historically nobodies use mangonels against a bunch of troops,

Technically the Romans used them like this, and in the game instead of mangonels we have Onagers called that (a mistake that I suppose is only to make a reference to the AoE2 mangonels). I was actually one of those who suggested that they change to small Torsion Trebuchets, so that it would be more historically accurate, or at least their name to onager. ( [Suggestion] Change name of Mangonel to Onager)

At the moment there are no MODs for that idea, but in theory, the “Mangonel” in the game represents a siege weapon loaded with a bunch of rocks for AoE damage, so in theory it “should” hurt the soldiers that receive rocks in their heads or limbs, etc.

Another thing is the amount of damage and the area damage, but that is debatable.

@Lam

. In the feudal age Canons were too expensive to produce so, usually the armies only have a few of them (very few between 3 or 5 canon pieces)

In fact, it depends on the army, it cannot be generalized. The Burgundians, who are not in the game yet, had an exaggerated number of bombards, ribauldequins and other types per battle, even the Scots.

On the other hand, the siege costs 3 population, so it is normal that the siege in the game does not outnumber the majority of troops.

And in theory in the game one makes a hypothetical army "with all the freedom to see which combo looks best." If one wants to copy the Burgundian or Ottoman model with the English and create a bombard squadron, then one can do it. Another thing is that your entire economy is wasted on it, and worse if you don’t take good care of them, “like in the real life”.

At least in Ranked 1vs1 one cannot trust oneself and create bombards without taking risks, and that is if the game reaches post-imperial, otherwise it will be difficult for you to even see one produced.

@Lam

The Constantinople siege only had 12 Great bombards and 7000 soldiers; ottomans try to use the canons to destroy the wall and they can’t achieve the goal, the anecdotal of this siege is… a guard forgot to close the gate and the ottoman army enter for the gate lol.

They were not able to destroy it because the Byzantines spent their time “repairing” the damaged walls", and it was not a single wall, it was a complex of 2 walls, behind an artificial water moat. The event you narrate about the door could be an event for a Campaign scenario, there is no reason to say that it cannot be in the game.

@Lam

Man that’s the solution, we want that people stop abusing mangonels.

So for u what is the solution?

That’s the thing, “I don’t want mangonels to stop being used.”

I like them, they are the only general unit effective against groups of archers, since light cavalry hardly does the job well if there are too many of them.

Another thing is that you have to balance their attack, AoE range, etc.

[NEWS] New Patch 10 in one or two weeks with Season 7

And well, according to the Preview of the patch that will come out, the developers already have a temporary solution:

With those changes, Springald AGAIN can destroy mangos of 2 shots, and also, they conserve their great attack speed.

Well, let’s see how it turns out in the next season.