I know they are going to rework siege soon.
I hope they kill 2 birds with 1 stone and make Mangonels super deadly in late Imperial, to stop the stalemates caused by the slow time to kill.
I hope they add an expensive tech to the University that buffs Mangonels, while having them nerfed and not very affordable mid game.
Sorry for my english, but I don’t agree
Siege is one of the worst aspects of Age of Empires IV, not only said by me, but by pro players like Vortix. Imperial Age is all about a bunch of siege killing each other, that is why many players love playing feudal or castle. Mangonels are way too strong against units; it is the same problem with Otoman’s Great Bombard. Also, the only real counter for siege is another siege (Springald). This makes no sense and it is the only AoE game with this.
I believe siege units should be used for siege, not to kill units. For me, Mangonels should be a Feudal age siege weapon available after investigating Siege Engineers, with just 1 strong projectile and adjusted cost (more than a ram), range (a bit more than an archer) and damage (maybe the same as a ram) but still weaker against attacks. In this way we would have like a progression in siege quality and cost Ram->Mangonel->Trebuchet->Cannon, according to damage and range. Mangonels would be more expensive than Rams, with the same damage, but they don’t have to be close to the building they are attacking, so you can protect them. Rams would have more HP and the ability to carry infrantry. Trebuchets would have a bigger damage and range, forcing the enemy to move, and cannons would be the last siege unit, the one that destroys every building in just seconds with a good range.
If you think that late spam is a problem, and that units are created maybe way too fast, there must be another solution, but buffing Mangonels is the best way to kill this game. Imperial age is already booring right now. just mangonels and springalds fighting each other, and the one who has more or micro them better wins (Diamond-Conqueror league)
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having strong splash damage in post-imp. You can enjoy a siege-free early and mid game, while having a way to end the game when time to kill can’t keep up with the production capacity.
This exists in other games as well, such as AoM, where god powers serve the same role. You need something to deal with masses of units late game, and I don’t think an upgrade in the University would affect anything other than the stalemate situation, at least in 1v1s.
I agree siege is the worst aspect of AoE4, I just want it weaker during the game, and stronger when the game gets too long.
But AoM is a game about Gods and mythological creatures, it makes sense. You can’t just nuke people in a Medieval game. AoE 2 is the most popular AoE game and it has nothing like that. AoE IV since released has been a game of tons of siege, specially when springalds were op, there were only armies of springalds and some units to defend them. Today, any Imperial age game is about some units and 10+ siege units that are not even being used for siege. If you put that into the game, you won’t end games quicker, the only thing that will happen is that on Imperial Age we will see even more Mangonels and Springalds than today, and a micro battle to kill each other siege before sending the army. Who will create and send army against an op mangonel? People will just retreat and wait for their own siege.
I have been in games for 20-25 minutes just killing enemy siege with my siege and I don’t really think that an strong splash damage will be the solution for this.
On the other hand, Mangonels were not even used to attack armies, they were just like trebuchets but with less range. It makes no sense to make them an army killer when they are not. Siege should not be used to counter armies, we have already seen what happens when that is possible, and it was terrible.
They are redesigning Springald, so you won’t have any more siege vs siege, you will have 2 armies, both with siege fighting each other. So the end result is armies that die faster. They’ll probably create a weakness for Mangonels as well, so that both sides can micro, but the important thing is for units to die faster in post-imp. Not instantly, but faster. So you don’t have interminable games where units are produced faster then they are killed. Replenishing should be slightly slower than the rate at which armies kill each other.
You’re bringing into the discussion the historical realism of the Mangonel, which I don’t think it’s very useful when we’re talking about gameplay.
AoE2 is also a very a different game, there are no infinite resources there, there is no trading and no passive bonuses, and workers have lower gather rates, which means there is much less spam. But even AoE2 has Mangonels that delete units when massed, but are also very weak to anything that gets near them, so that could be a solution.
Anyway, you have to choose between games that don’t end, and having to deal with siege in the very late game. I prefer siege, than getting bored because armies trade indefinitely and the game doesn’t end. I don’t see another solution that doesn’t involve completely redesigning the economies.
I haven’t seen a single game that can not be endend because of infinite troops and economy, not even with English infinite food and gold. They are not ended because you can’t move because you don’t want to be nuked by siege or because you need siege to move forward.
Not useful when talking about gameplay? We have AoE 1, AoE 2 and AoM and none of these games have mangonels or catapults like anti-army units. They are all SIEGE units used for SIEGE. Obviously, you don’t want a rock in your archer’s heads, but still is not the solution to big armies.
AoE 2 less spam? I have seen games beetween pros with more than 1000 of the same unit in 1v1. Mangonels die in like a second, not like here that you must sacrifice your entire army (or use springalds) to kill some mangonels on the backline. You can see Hera move 20-30 light cavalry to kill a single trebuchet or cannon and create more army in like a second.
I preffer any other solution than killing this game (more) with better mangonels. These are just the worst units in this game. If they do that, me and many other will just leave. I just finished another booring Imperial age game with a full siege battle in the middle. My enemy having 3 trebuchets, about 8 springalds and 5 mangonels, it’s always the same.
You don’t need a solution for something that is not a problem. I have participated in tournaments and I’m always watching pro players games and haven’t seen a single game that doesn’t end for army trading, I don’t know how you get to that, but that is not a real problem, nobody talks about that, nobody complains about that, just you. But there are tons of complains about siege, even by proplayers. So I really really expect that nobody turns this game into garbage just buffing Mangonels.
Thanks
You’re joking right? I’ve observed my fair share of high level games and tournament games that ended in stalemates.
In AoE2 at least Mangonel is exactly that.
1000 units? I thought the limit was 200 pop for each player. But anyway the spam is not about how many units are produced, it’s about the fact units are produced faster than they die, so you have a max pop stalemate in the late game. In AoE2 the resources on the map become scarce, which is not the case here with infinite amounts of food and gold.
Are you familiar with Starcraft 2 siege tanks? It’s basically the same thing and no one complains there. Anyway, having an upgrade at the University for strong siege would only make it strong 30+ into the game. How long do you want your games to last?
You’re diamond 1, you’re not yet at a point where you’re playing optimally so that stalemates become an issue. But watch Beasty vs Puppypaw in the Red Bull Qualifiers finals and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.
We’ll see what they opt for. Whatever it is, there’s a slim chance our conversation here influences it, and I think we’ve both made our points.
Yeah, my highest rank is Diamond III, I know I’m not the best player in the world. Still, I have to see the best players in my region like Facubula, Alukar, Starflark, VerteX, ShellbeTV, and they are Conqueror III (Shellbe lost some games and now is Conq I) and it is the same. Just watch the video Vortix uploaded to YT explaining why he left AoE 4 (I think you can add english subs), he talks about that, and he was one of the best 3 players in the world. Even beasty commeted about his video and said that springalds and mangonels games are cancer games, and a lot of proplayers complains about siege, and he believes that no mangonels would mean that games would end faster. He suggests that pop cost should be increased, but read the next he said:
“I do agree that mangonel, specially early castle if you did go for mass range units can put a hold to the game. Like the game is going, the game is happening, mangonels comes out and then you are just like I can’t do anything. It’s because there is too many units protecting them, you can’t dive into them and then you go springalds. I agree with that part, and I wouldn’t mind to change it”.
You put beasty as an example and he thinks the same I think. Obviously, with his best micro he can do a lot better against siege, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem. When siege comes out, fun is over.
I think I found the game you said, and most of them were only like 20 minutes long (1-3), totally normal. You can even see a moment when 3 Beasty’s mangonels just melted like 40 pupppypaw’s units. The longest one was like 43 minutes long, and I don’t see that it was because of army production
Seige needs a limit to how many u can have. There not fun at all. Taking forever for seige to be nerf
I think it’s only fun when in low numbers and you can micro against it.
The quickest and the simplest way to balance siege:
Splash damage from mangonels is necessary. Because mass Crossbows/handcannoneers will demolish everything. Once they get enough surface area through mass, even a full supply horsemen/knights will not be able to stop them as long as you kite them properly.
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This unit is the primary and the only way to counter massed ranged unit (apart from Malians)
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Including Malians, because the Javelin Thrower loses effectiveness the higher the number of Archers.
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Increase the model size of mangonels
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There’s a problem here, as they still need to be able to move between buildings, otherwise buildings do become walls, which wasn’t what they were after.
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Convert springalds and culverins into anti-heavy units
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This would still make Magonels stronger. Even if they’re double the supply and a bit larger, not having Springalds means 4-5 Mangonels can still happen, and that deletes an army without proper counters.
Your name got censored for some reason.
Guess we’re about to find out. PUP in 22 hours on Steam!
As for size, the game allows a unit of any size to fit between buildings. This is the case for trebuchets, great bombard, and elephants.
As for the practicality of having 4-5 mangonels, let’s look at a scenario or two
Mid game Castle Age: If you invested in 4-5 mangonels, you are probably playing defensively and have no other meaningful army to speak of to take control of the map. Or, you completely dominated the guy in feudal and now on your last push. So, the siege spamming does not apply to this scenario.
Late game Castle Age 100 worker pop scenario where both players kept fighting, leaving no room for aging up. Having 4 mangonels in your army would mean 24 supply tied up in siege alone, leaving 76 supply for other units. Now, imagine your opponent having 100 supply mix of infantry and cavalry, with his ranged units spread out in a formation. The difference of 24 units is big. Let’s say that your opponent shift-clicks 24 units into your mangonels while the other 76 are tied up with your front line. It takes a long time to kill all 24.By the end of it all, your 4 to 5 mangonels are probably gone. Not only that, he would have diverted firepower away from the front.
Late game Imperial Age scenario: Bombard/cannon variants will become the de facto counter to Mangonels, perhaps rendering them obsolete. It 2-shots them, just like a springald. Now, having 4-5 bombard/cannon variants are not that big of an issue due to their lack of or reduced AOE damage.
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As for size, the game allows a unit of any size to fit between buildings. This is the case for trebuchets, great bombard, and elephants.
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That’s true when packed they have mostly the same size. I never tried to unpack between buildings though. Wonder if that works.
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The difference of 24 units is big.
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I guess the question is, are the 4 Mangonels capable of killing more than 24 supply until they are dealt with.
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Late game Imperial Age scenario: Bombard/cannon variants will become the de facto counter to Mangonels, perhaps rendering them obsolete. It 2-shots them, just like a springald.
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Well if you have to make Bombards to deal with Mangonels then we’re back to square one of siege counters siege. I hope that’s not gonna be the case.
Super excited!
They’ll be looking for feedback, and they’re doing it early to adjust the patch to it.
Many changes are experimental and may be adjusted as we gather data from the PUP, as well as some features and fixes already planned for Season Nine may not be present in this build.
Hopefully it is siege focused!
As for what I think about siege, I actually like it the way it is right now, but I always think it can be improved.
That said, there are things that I think will be impossible or very unlikely, and things that I want to keep
I like it the way it is, I don’t think they should remove it. The culverin IS ALREADY A CLASSIC in AoE III and its anti-siege function is very popular in that game. In fact, in the wars of the early modern age (1500-1700), cannons that had a higher range than others were used precisely to destroy enemy cannons with a lower range, or to kill their operators. And that is exactly what the culverin represents, with bullets so small that they would not destroy walls, but other cannons or siege weapons would.
About the Springald on the other hand… that’s another story, but in theory, it should at least retain some anti-siege damage to counter Catapults and Rock Throwers from Castle Age (III).
The most I could ask for is that it be available to all factions for balance, well, until Aztecs and Incas come out in the 3rd or 4th DLC, hehe, those are going to have to be balanced really badly.
I love it when you use the Springald against Mangonels, especially when it ##### #### to pieces. That said, while it is an important function as a counter, I don’t think it should be defined. It could, as other users suggested, and even me, have “Anti-Heavy Damage” or even “Anti-Elephant”.
And elephants need a 2nd counter, crossbowmans aren’t enough, and it was suggested that it be the siege damage of certain siege units, such as springalds and culverins. Historically, cannons were used to defeat elephants, or at least Babur did.
Historically, Balliastas were used to destroy targets at long distances from walls, or “against units on the walls”, as a sniper rifle in the ROMAN Classical Era (-700 BC - 455 AD). The other was to cut through several units in a row, like the Scorpion in AoE IV.
However, to avoid the mistake of the 1st season where it had so much attack and firing rate that you practically built quite a few and could dismantle entire armies (as if it were an army of mini-tanks), it could be considered reducing its firing rate, and concentrating much of its damage on “extra damage”.
They are hardly used. I once used it to annoy an opponent with walls, but it was very situational. It could be considered the Egyptian Siege Tower Design from Age of Mythology, which has a mini-ram underneath. What I’m saying is that you could give it a mini-ram with an “Against Walls” attack and only against walls. If not, as the Sultan Tower, it could shoot proyectile while have units garrisoned, but obviusly, with less damage than a normal archer (like 3, or 4 of damage).
Sometimes I think they should make it have more bonus against gates than against stone walls, because well, in Total War they are used that way and it makes sense. Instead, against walls you could use siege towers, well, something I explained in the post above.
It’s worth dreaming, at least it would be more historically correct.
At least for a MOD it would be fun, and it could be done if it weren’t for the fact that the platform for publishing and making mods is currently quite limited, otherwise we would already have Teletubbies, Mario, Shrek and Master Chief mods here and there.
I’ll be honest, I don’t really expect much change in the siege:
I think they could call it a remake, but it could be that they just increase the springald’s attack by +1 and something like that.
Of course, I don’t want to get too busy doing Brainstorm either because then, maybe, the surprise when they announce the changes will be lost a bit.
On the other hand, there are already a lot of people who are giving various suggestions, which is good,
to remember our role as insiders. Some of them are quite novel, others are nice, and others are simply impossible.
In fact, the surprise may NOT TAKE LONG, since on Reddit they announced that on Steam they announced that tomorrow (17-9-2024) a PUP of the 9th season will be announced with, I suppose, several of the changes they wanted to incorporate.
And that was without having time to create a 2nd Historicity topic. The 2nd one was for Paik.
Finally, once the PUP is open, it may be necessary to create ANOTHER thread to discuss whether or not we were satisfied with the changes, or if they deserve some extra balancing when they are revealed in Season 9.
It’s also possible that they’ll save the new “Mali’s Unique Unit” and the Siege Remake for after the PUP, and want to show us other changes they’re planning for the new season beforehand.
Anyway, I’ll see you at the PUP, when it is announced.
Patch notes are out for the PUP, it is mostly about siege but features changes across every civ.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1466860/discussions/11/6495968678937655438/
Siege Gameplay
Developer Overview:
“Our goal with the Siege Update is to slow down siege on siege combat by removing the anti-siege role from Springalds and Culverins and increasing time to kill on many siege interactions. With these adjustments, winning the backline siege battle will now mean you have effective tools for pushing on the field. Additionally, adjustments to siege durability have been made across the board to tune unit to siege interactions, specifically ranged units will no longer either one shot or never kill siege weapons and instead will deal more consistent damage to all siege. High level changes directly below, followed by the detailed change list.”
Springalds reworked from an anti-siege role to an anti-melee infantry role with special projectiles that pierce their target which pass through enemy formations for devastating effect.
Culverins reworked from anti-siege to a unique bombard replacement for several civilizations.
Adjusted the armor of all siege engines from ranged armor to ranged damage reduction (referred to as Ranged Resistance).
Ram and Siege Towers reduce incoming ranged damage by 95%.
Bombards, Cannons, and Culverins reduce incoming ranged damage by 85%.
Trebuchets reduce incoming ranged damage by 80%.
Mangonels and Nest of Bees reduce incoming ranged damage by 75%.
Springalds reduce incoming ranged damage by 60%.
Ribauldequins reduce incoming ranged damage by 35%.
For giving feedback on the PUP it looks like they would prefer it to be consolidated to the PUP steam forum:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1466860/discussions/11/6495968678937619036/
Providing Feedback
As much as possible.
We ask that you provide your feedback and bug reports in these Steam forums – this will allow us to more quickly collate your inputs and take action.
Also, we will likely not see the changes made through feedback during PUP:
Note: At this time, we are not planning to release an updated build during the PUP.
Is this a buff to siege? How do you counter siege with these changes?