So true ! at time in some odd condiitions, specially in teaty ! I’ve found a flail spam is far more effective.
As flails are the only spammable unit India have, as they have a very low train time copared to other Indian units, also a 50% range resist. makes it great against skirms/artillery behind multiple walls. More like a slow oprinicks.
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Ahh then in that case it is true xd
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If you´re talking about 1 mahout vs 1 sowar then you are correct, but for each mahout there should be 3 sowars and 3 sowars deal more dmg per hit, mahout=74x2x2=296 and sowars=57x2.5x3=427.5, it´s about 44% more dmg.
Yeah i forgot about these guys tbh but i think those are in a whole other class of OPness xd but just to clarify, they only have like 51% more hp
Is a liiitle cheaper wich is almost insignificant, they don´t have more hp, sowars have like 5% more hp, and uhlans have almost 65% more atk than sowar but sowar has 51% more damage to skirm type units wich is almost the main point to use hand cav.
I would say FT are moderately good, i mean they can be good, but the whole point of the culvs is snipe because cannons are in the back of the army, but the FT is not, it´s actually in the first or second line, and they deal pretty high damage and can be well controled, but just the range is not the best, and it can just be killed by even other artillery or basically any other unit, i´m not saying they are bad, but they are not that good
That is true though
Well it just do the work better, only pop-wise a mahout have like 39% more hp than 3 sowars, but 3 sowars have 44% more damage to skirms, and only with that they are better cause to kill skirms you want more dmg to eliminate them than more hp to tank, but sowars are also more likely to be overkilled rather than being focused on, sowars have 25% more speed and are cheaper and don´t require wood, so i think they are pretty better actually
Japanese have bad eco, and chinese HM if you mean that artillery, is super good imo but if you talk about the cost then is very costly per pop, like 40% more than normal artillery pop-wise and SE are only 17% more expensive pop-wise
That is true, FE are more population efficient than sowars, if you talk about only vs skirms then the RR of the FE saves it, without RR taken into account then sowars are like 20% more efficient vs skirms pop-wise but just for the RR FE are like 16%-17% more efficient than sowars vs skirms pop-wise, but in addition to that 17% vs skirms, they are better vs art and vs buildings and that´s always nice, although i have to say, that as the main thing is vs skirms, FE are 17% more pop efficient than sowars but also cost 40% more and sowars are 87.5% faster wich is a big deal because FE are even slower than the standard skirm, so i rather have a 87.5% faster and 40% cheaper cav than a 17% more pop efficient cav any day 
but if i can use them for siege and vs artillery then of course i can use FE as well but they are not better than sowars vs skirms
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That is why I said technically… but even then there is descending damage as a Mahout will deliver that amount of DPS the whole life of it, and gets over 2000 hp vs under 500 for a sowar. Where as sowars will start dying off and that damage will drop by 1/3 etc…
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I am going by late game stats after cards as you would fight in a TR, A lancer will get over 800 HP, but I think a sowar tops at 450-480. Its been a while since I made some in imperial
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again going by late game stats you can get uhlans up to 505HP and Sowar is I think 480. End attack is 94 vs 49x2 respectively. The only time this is an advantage over a Uhlan is if a skirm has between 283- 295 hp, it would then kill a skirm in 1 less hit. Yes killing infantry is the main purpose of cav but with such low HP few units make it to the battle, and if they hit anything else just die… But hussars and most other cavalry can hold up to most units once in melee and still counter infantry… it is their high hp that allows them to deliver more strikes thus improving its overall ability to deliver shots.
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I think depends on the civ and situation for flames but culvs do not get bonus on them so its a 4 pop unit doing 70 attack to like a 565hp unit. it takes like 8-9 shots, times 6 sec per reload and its taking like 45 sec for a culv to counter a flamethrower… too late by then. Falcs would do better.
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Also, did DE buff flail ele? you guys are talking about it like its a true multi use unit. In legacy its really only useful for quickly taking down FB, but hardly worth upgrading.
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Yea they were trash in legacy, BUT in DE they are viable and, sort of surprising unit, decreased pop, decent siege + area attac and faster build time + and they can be used on light inf at times so yeah
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I prefer use FE vs skirms instead mahouts cause you can train more and faster, they work vs artillery too. They cost 3 pop (4 on legacy), 2 with card and they have double base attack right now. Also u can use the mansabdar for meme strat. Now every mansabdar take the same pop slots and have the boosted attack as normal units but I think that they could be spammed in HC point as a shipment to do easier the indian mobility on the battlefield.
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Such a satisfying idea
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I don’t particularly want to get into all the mathematics here, but because of the massive damage cap that flail elephants have (significantly higher than their base damage), they are “technically” capable of dealing more damage per second to skirms than sowars, but this is only true if they are fighting massed skirms and have overlap with other flailephant’s splash damage. in a 1v1 vs a skirm, yeah 100% the sowar is better. Maybe I’ll need to make a thread on the damage and stuff, its pretty interesting results.
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Percentages not always translate to real battle scenarios. There are many other factors : cards , area damage, number of units, game mode.
And in most cases Sowar performs underwehlming. and are not a great choice in most scenarios, coz ull almost never find unguarded, ranged inf. and also the pathing on Indian cav units is one of the worst possible.
thats why U’ll never see a “MASS SOWAR” , but a meme FE build or, mass mohout etc
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I really felt this path finding is horrible with Indian units, especially mahouts.
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I appreciate the tip, but I also see 2 points worth mentionning:
1- Overpoping is not an Indian speciality. In theory your opponent could just delete some vills as well to reciprocate.
2- You said you do not play DE. This mean you never face new civs that can do similar things by default (like Incas) and your experience do not take into account new balance and techs, like Immigrants that have increased the gap of training time between Indians and Euro civs.
(Ex.: on Andes the tech double the number of infantry Euro civs can create, only needing 10% of the original time instead of 20%, while having only a small effect for Indians: they pass from 45% to 35% of the original time needed)
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Ok so Flail eles seem incredibly good now. So much so they replace mahouts? So India has 3 heavy cav units?
I wished they had reworked it to do something else. Like become a anti-cav unit like the cheyanne rider.
Also mansabars are incredible value for same pop now. Would be so much fun to use for all unit types.
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Most civs do not do well to do that. but yes that is a possible counter, and then it really comes down to who can manage their eco better, and at some point then one has to remake their eco. Ussually though by initiating it with India since they have such a strong over pop, (look at untis from the game I posted above, does it look like my counter units should have killed all his stuff? ) puts them into a feeding frenzy as they try to reestablish their position. 50 is extreme, so start with 20 so you can learn to manage producing Indian armies. but you do need to delete down some just to mitigate the slow train times.
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Which is exactly why I say I use this in legacy 2 years ago. this strat casually got me to Major ranking, and if anything India seems more powerful now and could possibly do it better.
Finding techs to make Indian train better would also help this so much.
to me it would seem like India would be a good civ vs Inca because of urumi and they lack cannon so I think India would out Infantry them.
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yes, getting a 100% buff to attack and -1 pop tends to do that. if nothing else, the mansabdar alone is worth training as the absolute 2 pop tank. somethin like 1500hp and 50rr. very good for tanking and actually have a melee multi against artillery, something the other 2 desperately need. I think I’ll definitely do a seperate thread with all the numbers for lategame potential
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I would like to see those numbers and for tigers too (did they give them cav tags?)
because that is really like 4 heavy cav units for India then, 5 if you were to use the infinite war elephant card.
For 6 pop mahouts could use a artillery multiplier… but that and pathing is only thing I would consider for it.
Curious for the camel users, what the decks look like since you need to make room for two age 2 cards.
BTW Flail Ele OP! haha I had to make a custom one for some table top gaming in 1/72, made a Siege ele too.
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That´s why i said mahouts have about 39% more hp, but still sowars have 44% more dmg so they are a little better, if you think about hp as the time you can deal a determined amount of damage then mahout would be something like 1.39x1=1.39 total dmg and sowars 1x1.44=1.44 total damage.
Yes, i am going for late too in TR, and if memory don´t fail me now, lancer have 805 hp while sowars have 532 hp with the mansabdar sowar, maybe you were not taking into account the mansabdar, so without the mansabdar they are like 484 hp but with it they get to 532 hp, and 805/532= 1.51
If memory don´t fail me again, uhlans have 503.5 hp while sowars have 532 as i explained earlier, and uhlans have 94.35 atk and sowars 57.2 atk but 143 dmg to skirms so uhlans kill skirms with 283.05 hp or less (german, spanish, cassadors, etc.) in 3 hits, and 4 for the high hp ones (french, dutch, etc.) while the sowar kills basically the same ones but in 2 hits, skirms with 286 hp or less (almost same as uhlan) and the others with 3, so from 3 hits to 2 hits is a huge difference, it´s 50% more attack so = +50% hp or whatever you like to express it. I agree that hussars are just more comfortable to use, because they are more generalized, but sowars are just better and satisfying to use cause they get their role done better, as for the hp, the have 30% ranged resist instead of hussar´s 20% so in ranged hp hussars have only 32% more ranged hp while sowars have DOUBLE the damage of the hussar to skirms (and i´m using Life Guard fully upgraded stats for all this, 800hp and 72atk) so hussars can take 32% more hits but sowars can kill skirms with HALF the hits, so it can kill 2 skirms while hussars kill 1 skirm, and most of the cases with hand cav you just want to get in, kill the most skirms as fast as you can to deal real damage, and sowars can do that very well, even with their 11% more speed, so that means even less ranged damage taken while it gets close enough…
Yeah, flamethrowers are good, but that´s why i mentioned the culvs, normally you train culvs to snipe the cannons because they are in the back of the army, so culvs are super good to do that, but flamethrowers are not in the back and far away so you don´t need culvs, you need culvs vs cannons cause sometimes they are far away and cav can´t reach them, but to counter FT you don´t make culvs, and you don´t need them, just make cav or heavy inf or even with a focused volley of your inf, or like you said, with falcs or HA, i mean, you can snipe FT with your own art, but after all, FT are a kind of weird unit to counter sometimes, they may not have a hard counter other than cav, but still every unit can counter them to some extent and with cav or falcs you should not have trouble
Yeah, that should be a good change for India make more use of the mansabdar that is not hard to use but is kinda far away so it´s a bit slow
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