Solution to make india more played in treaty

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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In your Arthritic are missing the fact that sowars are going to die faster and the die off will greatly reduce their attacking power.

  1. No I was not counting the mansabar… they buffed those things so much. But still compare total power by multiplying that 1.51 with how much more attack it does ans its like 4x the unit a sowar is. (will you factor in attack with 10 monks?)

  2. They must have buffed sowar attack too because I remember them only getting up to 49 attack without mansabar and I do not think mansabar buffs any unit that much.

Its also hard to really count the mansabar like this because it can still be easily killed in battle then all your units drop in strength again leading to a overestimated strength.

Also HP, and how valuable that is over attack. For instance merc shipments. Shipping the mamelukes is game winning often in SUP because of how much they can get done with all those HP. No one really ever says or thinks that about sending hackapells (I realize DE changed the name) in the same way. Sure they can be dangerous but not like game winning shipments that allow you to delete armies.

And how weak sowars are to everything else is just a way to balance how much it does to skirms because overall Hussars will still provide more damage to the enemy army overall.

So what does your deck look like? do you have any elephant cards?

If it works for you great though… what rank does this strat play at?

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haha why not? :frowning:

ohhh didn´t know, so it´s not 2 times their base attack (20)? Do you know how much is it? and how do you know it, is there a page or something?

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I am gonna make a whole thread for it, its something like 3.5x the base damage i believe? its very high for a damage cap. I’ll double check and get back

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Its not difficult to add both camels cards to deck with every eco card but sawmills and every military card. Only infinity wood crates, no grazing, no dhukka suffering (camels are very fast), no extensive forts (a good card but something has to be out)

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Yes percentages are not useful if you take them out of context, but percentages are one of the most useful types of information and they normally are based and take into account all that.

How do you “know” that? have you gave them a try, or do you just see their hp and base atk and decide that they are bad, or even try them but with the idea that they are bad so you are just waiting to confirm it? and even if the skirms are not unguarded that´s the same problem for mahouts and most hand cav anyway

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I very much like extensive forts… Fort spam really hold the base together.

in my age 2 slot I have fast train inf, fast train cav, wood trickle, cheaper buildings, 15% hand attack, extensive forts, 15% agriculture and sepoy field building. Maybe someone could drop extensive forts but all others really need to stay. What is the other card you dropped? (or anyone who uses camels in TR)

with 2 trickles and 2-20% wood cards in age 1 do not need saw mills.

Also I wonder why you would use heavy infantry to kill flame throwers… they are the counter to them. Generally one wants to make as little heavy inf vs China as possible.

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Thanks! and omg if that´s right then definitively is almost always better than any other indian hand cav

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Age1:
Favorable kharma(Tigers)
Exotic hardwoods
Woodcrafting (2nd wood card)
Distributism
Goraksha
Fur trade
Food silos
Rum destilery

Age2:
Foreign logging (2nd trickle)
Mughal architecture
Fencing school
Riding school
Camel attack
Desert terror
Battlefiel construction
Dravidian martial arts
Sustainable agriculture

Age3:
Tame elephants
Elephant combat
British East India company
Royal green jackets
Royal mint

Age4:
Wood crates
Shivaji’s tactics
Proffesional handlers (pop reduction)

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I just don´t understand what you are saying (sorry), the 1.51 is the life of the hussar but the sowar have 1.99 atk so it´s 72x1.51 for hussar and 57x2.5 for sowar so it´s actually like 33% better total damage for the sowar.
Sowar mansabdar is just like the other, +10% atk and hp, and sowars have 52 atk without them.
And the case for mamelukes is a whole another history, what´s important about them is the damage tanked, so they don´t really accomplish anything, is really the other units that do all the work while the mameluke just works as a shield, but that is for another day haha cause it´s another topic, a little long xd.
I have 2 decks, one with only camels cards and one with only elephants cards, i use more camels but i love also the flail elephants xd

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age 1-I use good faith and team buildings, no rum distillery. ( p[art of reason you do not make as many cannon?)

Maybe DE fixed this but in legacy gorshaks was always bugged and would only decrease the cost if you sent the shipment before upgrading the tech at the sacred fields first.

age 2. same but no camels and I have advance fortifications. I thought I was at full cards age 2, but I have 8 not 9.

age 3. the same

age 4 I add in 9 urumi. A must have for me.

India Mansabar seems a little broken TBH… every start army should have 1 of each just for the extra HP. To spam them from castles then would be really strong and would need a nerf like 2-3 times the train time. Sepoy and gurka were worth 2 pop, its just things like elephants were not worth 12. But imagine a 4000 Hp mahout coming out of a fort every 30 sec… I wouldnt need much else.

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You are just not comparing in real scenarios where hussars and sowars end up fighting all types of units. And also not mentioning how in comparing 3 units to 1 unit how when those 3 units start dying off with less HP are not providing the same score and can never really be accounted for as its a random thing.

I also what rank these tactics have taken you to?

Because being able to tank and use units like this is part of the strategy of the game. Or one can send many ineffective waves of weak units like russia does. So having 5 mahouts to tank, sure, they can try to kite or focus down, but its a sacrifice to allow the rest of the Indian army to do its work. I posted stats for a game that has no india buffs, and vs a counter civ and showed how 10 mahouts plus tigers = killing almost 200 cassadors. So everything must be looked at a holistic context on how one is using the indian army and economy.

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Yeah, they are not 100% fighting only skirms, sometimes they end up fighting musks, cav, etc. but you always should pretend to use them vs skirms, and it´s not that sometimes is impossible, cause if it is, then you don´t make cav either way, i mean, you only have to macro them a little, the way i see it, is that yes, maybe is less forgiving to use sowars over hussars, i agree to that, but if you use them right you can have better cav, meaning, if you are not a very good player, are too lazy to do macro/micro, or just don´t want or care, then yes, hussars are better, but for me, i like units or armies that are difficult and complicated to use, that need constant macro but in return are better, i think that is the case of the sowar, so if you hone your skills sowars end up being gold xd well, i just really like them, if you don´t i understand, everyone should use what strat is more fun to them. Also the thing with the 3 units, i think in a real scenario is more likely to be more overkill in 3 units with low hp than in 1 unit with a lot of hp, but anyway…
I do not play ranked, so i´m unranked xd
And what you say about the mahouts sacrifice, i understand that, but i think a hand cav in most situations are not meant to tank, but to deal serious injury to the enemies skirms, i mean, hand cav is the only unit apart from cannon that can counter skirms, the other units like other skirms just do mirror and goons are worse, heavy infantry even worse, so hand cav is your only option to deal with skirms, specially for india that don´t have too many cannon support, so if you use your mahouts to tank, your gurkhas, sepoys, howdahs, etc. won´t deal very effectively with the enemie´s skirms, you are just wasting your mahouts in my opinion, so it´s better to have them to deal damage rather than take it

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ok number is confirmed in the game files to be a damage cap of 28, so 2.8x base damage. they have 1.5x vs skirms and 4x vs artillery, and are upgraded by elephant combat, dravidian and 5% so they cap in imperial at 65.8 damage cap, or about 71 with mansabdar nearby. if it wasn’t for the speed they’d outcass sowars in every stat, thats kinda depressing ngl. oh well, at least they’re siegey

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By playing the game, for years and not just comparing percentages.

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Ohh thanks! x2.8 it´s a lot, 40% more, wish samurai had that too tbh :frowning: and yeah, now with that in mind, they are better than sowars in almost every scenario except when you need speed, but i don´t think is depressing, because it´s not because sowars are bad, is because flail elephants are super strong, i mean, mahouts are the ones in a kinda depressing spot cause sowars have speed but mahouts don´t have much more that FE don´t already have, FE are super good, they are 2 pop, only cost 12.5% more than regular 2 pop units but have 804.375 hp (LG hussar has 800), but with 50% RR wich translates in 60% more ranged hp than hussar, then an attack of 26.4 wich in most cases is 73.92 because of AoE (LG Hussar has 72) but also have the good multipliers to skirms and art and then is amazing at siege, only is the speed but is not that much, and for 800 hp with 50% RR and you are gonna destroy their deffenses either way so it can´t be stopped, just like 30 gurkhas on the back and it would be amazing!

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Hmm well, i just defended my view and my theory, i can obviously be wrong and i might be, i just wanted to say that because i find sowars so useful and good and see how they are underrated by the community, and i wanted the community to give them a try, but obviously at the end of the day we all have our preferences and things that work for us and our playstyles and things that don´t, i guess experiences are not the same for all of us and of course i respect that, you are probably right and sowars are not good, but they work for me and i like to use them, they fit in my playstyle, but nonetheless i appreciated discussing with you :slight_smile:

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Well how long have you been playing then? all TR? most of my experience comes from FFA. Which is unranked, so I have maybe a couple hundred total ranked games, yet thousands on FFA.

I disagree though that one should only look at cav as a means to kill skirms. There are many attributes that make cav valuable. DPS, HP, speed, infantry multipliers, siege, resist, ability to raid or get bonuses vs artillery. To say mahouts are only to tank or that by tanking would gain me nothing is a projection. I had about 2:1 kill ratio. making 7 mahouts over 7 minutes of fighting. My opponent spending twice as much time making units as me giving me more time to micro and get better kill ratios. So if you like difficult high reward plays, mahouts may be fun for you. If their pathing were a little better would be plainly evident how strong it is. In the end I had almost 10X unspent res so please tell me how I waste my mahouts.

over kill does not matter if the equation changes to killing the units having less attack and HP as it scales down, but Mahout still going strong. At that its all speculation as to how the micro goes. which is why I try to point out the flaws of viewing the units as a singular number value. Its skewed to favor the sowar.

Also counters to skirms: retreating to towers/ castles, animals, shock inf (ok lets call it a cav), grenadiers can… Jag knights (heavy inf), abus, urumi, sharpshooters? musk in melee if you get on top of them…

(devs: I think to fix Mahout pathing is it possible that instead of a mahout trying to go around its allies to the enemy, can it have right of way, and anything in its path try to move? )

DE balance is weird… why does India need 5 hand cav units… sad they are balancing it in such a flat way.

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indeed they perform quite well as tanks and actually fairly decent against skirms. I never use mahouts much, but I do ship the war elephants which are pretty similar. I also use the otto consulate hussars which are identical to a euro huss with cav combat and cav attack shipped (10% cons unit buff, 5% card and dravidian, 30% attack total, 15% hp total). Lots of options available as india.

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Mass mohouts, are so good. They can beat small amout of musks, and then barge into whatever remains and still be alive.

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Man I think you should consider swapping those war elephants out for urumi. I did that for a long while… war ele are not that strong and eat up coin which you want to save, sending food for urumi is sustainable, and provides more DPS, yes you have to wait for the pop, but its worth it… if you need a cav make mahouts, they are just so much more powerful that when you need them they are more reliable to get the job done.

Here is generally the order I train units:

So i see my pop start dropping, i likely need a mahout, so I start training 1. then I drop maybe 7 more pop… I train like 7 sepoy out of 7 barracks. then im showing 199, I send urumi, as pop drops more, i then fill my barracks and stables/ castles with units, that will counter what he has. Then it all starts to pop…I may draw my front lines back a bit. the sepoy come first and are slower, then the mahouts pop and catch up, then the urumi pop, and there army is already busy now, but the urumi come in to sweep up. Is the basic way I do this for each wave. if you delete down then its like never being below 100 pop and its like what India would be as russia with full army out all the time.

And because of poor Mahout pathing one really does need to micro and choose the targets for it.

but seems DE just wants you to make flail ele now as they seem to have a higher DMG output vs all units per pop and tank really well.

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