Solution to make india more played in treaty

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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India is a strong civ in SUP, and FFA, but in TR is does lack a little. Not as much as some people say if played correctly and people actually use urumi with mahouts.

It does have a lot of useless units in late game that could be made better. None of the suggestions I have made are going over board, I think I have been trying to temper down the calls for many buffs.

India still has weaknesses, which is artillery, and it needs to stay that way. Sowars are not good as anti artillery units. They might be with 1 pop but I do not call for 1 pop camels. Doesnt even make sense since camels are larger than horses.

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didnt they already reduce Mahouts to 5 pop?

One thing to do to cope with indias slow train time and high pop units is delete down 20 vils, once you fur trade you really dont need 100 vills. and if you play it right the high attack units can get you better kill ratios that helps drain other ecos… if anyone has problems maintaining pop as india should not really be playing them, they are kinda an elite difficult TR civ to play.

1 pop sowars would be OP, then japan would be complaining naginatas not as good as camels… see where this goes? They are meant to not be as good, but do not underestimate the importance of speed. (also japan lancers more expensive)

mahouts synergize with urumi to act better than cannon. but alone yes they are weak to melee units. its really the bad pathing though as to why the unit suffers so much.

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Having a wall breaks all your strategy

I dont see how they would be OP beig made of glass, I mean, they have less HP and attack than naginatas, so Whats the point of having less HP?? In my opinion they should be as Uhlans

Killing 20 vills let them behind ecowise from other civs, why they have to do that while others dont?? Their eco is not at the lvl of germans. If you run out of gold then you are done because their rate is sht.
They have less rates while have the most expensive units while they are attached to train musketeers to build stuff, so skirmishers (that uncommon unit on treaty) will win.

Again, URUMIS CANT BE SPAMMED AND COST 18 POP SLOTS (bye 20 vills killed) UNTIL THEY COME While they dont one-shot infantry unlike canons, this means that HI can survive

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walls break every strategy, walls are the most abused thing in TR, and its why I play TR very rarely. But when I was playing my highest played civ was India (legacy) and I got to a low major rank before it just got too hard to find games. I played even on maps like ORI and winning, so its not like walls beat everything, India has mahouts, and Siege eles… and now if i am not mistaken Flail eles are so good that people should not even be making mahouts anymore and just laming flail eles, which are great vs walls.

As far as i know, uhlans are 2 pop and they are very similar units, both fast, weak HP but a strong attack, uhlans just being more useful because they give Dmg to all units and can be trained quite quickly. To compare them to nagitas is not quite fair because nagis cost 25% more and then also we could compare them to Spanish lancers which are far more powerful.

deleting vils, is a trick pros use and works well, this can be done for many civs, for timing pushes and just to overwhelm the other players to achieve better kill rations. When you start getting 1.5-2:1 kills it really improves your eco efficiency and cuts in half your opponents. That is how you drain someone, but if you do not have the timings of units and cant keep ur pop up then it wont matter much. Thats what makes India a more advanced civ vs some of the easier civs like Ports, France or Russia.

Urumi dont need to be spammed, 9 is enough to do some serious dmg. You just have to wait and time it right. Euro civs fight and hold a front line until it breaks, India attacks in waves, to lose an inch to get the right timing and wave to gain 2 inches. This is helped with a slightly larger pop space and timing things. I think the best buff that would not be over the top or change too much would be to find a way to get age 5 shipments of Urumi to arrive quickly. That is the way the civ was designed to be used with them. and in TR its even stronger because in SUP the way to beat urumi is to kite backwards, but if people do that in TR they just keep getting pushed back to their walls and India remains in control of the battle.

in summary the top things needed for India are:

Fix mahout pathing! (maybe need a 1 range to attacks like lancer and iron flails)
Urumi arrive at infantry train times
elephant train time cards and techs also effect camels.

If those 3 things were done I think India would be in a good place and have to be assessed from there…
all are small changes but have big ripple effects for people that play the civ to its strengths.

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Where is the indian advantage then?? Also 20 slots arent game changing when your units cost 5 slots, so just 4 unuts more. 4 units that can be focused by skirmishers. Also having that slow training time makes it hard to keep 200 limit.

The worse part is that nagis have more attack vs skirmshers too, thanks to the marvelous idea of giving higher bonus to every japanese unit.

All we know that HP are far more important to cavalry, gendarmes/spahis are the best for that reason. So that higher HP are enough for that 25% of the naginata.
This without talking about daymios…

No if you have proper canons to kill the units on them, or having mortars that just shot the walls instead of doing 40 damage to a soldier

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tenho esse problema também com a índia não consigo lidar bem sem morteiros com a índia

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mudando de assunto lembro de quando os canhoes de napoleão foram implementados no jogo como mercenários eu consegui ganhar alguns jogos, dependendo do mapa se der sorte de ter a pequena bombarda italiana ta taverna indiana da pra usar elas bem tambem, mais sempre quando jogo com índia deleto 15 a 20 aldeões para compensar o tempo de treino e o overpop

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if both people do it its not much of an advantage, other than indias need for only food kinda makes it easier to manage, but you would certainly have to if you want to keep up with someone who did. its then an all out brawl and quick game. Some civs its just not good to do with, like Russia, Azzy, Lakota, Japan, Dutch, france etc… but other civs can get away with it… Brits, ports, spain, india, Otto (is great because vils come back for free) germans

4 extra mahouts is no joke, a couple mahouts isnt that big a threat if dealt with, but if you start getting 6-7 mahouts backed by lots of inf, it becomes a lot to handle. You may snipe a couple down, but then have no way to deal with the mass of the rest of them.

A faster train time for Camels is what is recommended to help mitigate the slow train of all their best units. But though its the slowest training, its also the fastest building civ too, so makes it very hard to actually destroy FB unless you have port or japan mortars. When playing on maps like G plains and mahouts train instantly it is very OP, and bennefits India more than other civs, I do not think mahouts need faster train times. (better pathing YES) also to note, flail eles are better use of pop space and resources at the moment from my understanding, try making just mas flails.

japan is very strong civ no doubt.

Gends and spahi also have devastating attacks. and sowars are cheaper so should be weaker units.

if people are behind walls, use elephants, and siege eles to break them down. If you have pushed people behind the walls you are winning and in control, so you do not need to press in hap hazardly, but work away slowly at it… a hint is to target the post in the walls and use units spread out along the wall to spread the damage and get very large holes made that do not cause choke points. its a lot of hypothetical but yes walls ruin the chance of CAVALRY (mahouts or what ever) from doing their job. It breaks the normal stratedgy of how you fight when there are no walls. open field india has one of the best melee games.

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WRONG! any civ with mortar is fine, to tear apart an Indian base or Drain the wood.

This is only possible when u have buffer gold. Flails are butter soft, they resist skirm / goon, good against building, but suck a huge amount of resources. which can later paralyse you easily, and they dont make profitable trades either.

Sowar is having only 1 less pop than gendarmes, and are wayyy weaker/similar to a 1pop trash cav.

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I think the way you play India yes they would suffer from any mortar, the way I have laid out how to play them not as much. mortars are always good, but I love me a siege ele. I played high level and reg mortars are ok, its just the port mortars u can never get to.

I dont think you realize how much stronger they made flails in DE, more attack, only 2 pop, and it has a max dmg cap of 2.5 giving it some hidden golden stats that allow it to do well vs large groups. At 750 hp with range 50% range resist really only other heavy cav and musk counter it. which are easy counters for india to handle.

The one thing may be the amount of coin they need, but that can always be balanced with a good boom.

gends also cost almost double that of a sowar at 150 coin and food. and is a speciality trade mark of france… sowars are a foot note in the indian army. its not meant to be their strength.

doing almost 100 dmg to skirms as a 1 pop “trash cav” would be way too strong. it would be like a cossak with mixed with a uhlan. only thing the unit needs is faster train time. making 1 pop or buffing stats would make it so mahouts totally useless, which they kinda already are since flail ele so buffed up now.

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I’am probably the only person who uses the flail ele more than any other player in the whole game TBH , and I know their limitations very well. You have created an almost near to mohout image of flail ele which is no where close.

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I have watched some games they are incredibly good now.

I didnt say they were like mahouts, but for the cost they provide a lot of dmg, mahouts will do more dmg faster but the range resist and low pop count make them like a meme with their buffed attack and high dmg cap.

if all they were good at was siege still then you or anyone would not be using them. Very situational use for TR in legacy I rarely even upgraded them.

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They should have a higher attack to skirmishers than nagis while they have too much less HP but nagis higher to everithing else.

Mahouts should act as indian canons for that huge pop slots so they should have a lesser bonus to HI. If spanish lancers having a higher bonus arent an issue Mahouts wouldnt be neither. They cost a lot and have to compensate for that cost. Also they should give them more range to compensate the bad pathing.

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I dont know if this has been floated or not but how about buffing the karni wonder aura so that it’s based off current gather rates instead of base rates.

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why should they have a higher attack than carded nagis? nagis cost 25% more resources.

While mahouts are possibly too suseptible to HI for the cost I am sure the devs played around with the bonuses and were like… hmmm if we dont half the DMg to HI then there is nothing to stop this 2000hp unit with a 120 area attack… It seems like it would be too strong with so many HP. using them with urumi is the key to that balance.

I do think they should play around with giving it a 1 range though like other lancers.

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I forgot they changed that, and it seems like it should be reverted back.

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Because camels have 2 cards too (?). More HP >>>>>more attack. Nagis would keep being better against most units while sowar would be stronger vs skirmishers sacrifing HP for more attack as uhlans do. Thats the point of having less HP while cost same pop slots.

The higher cost of nagis is caused by higher HP, as I said, is far better than having more attack (gendarmes, spahis are the best for this (hussar has more attack lol))

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from the wiki, Sowars start with 225HP and Nagis 300. a 75 HP difference. 33% more HP than a sowar for 25% more cost. so an 8% HP advantage. While the Sowar is also over 10% faster and trains 5 seconds faster too.

uncarded attacks Sowar does 40 dmg to inf, and Nagi does 42, pretty much the same. (its better vs HI and other units though but still a hard counter by it) A truely better unit at 25% would have more attack and HP. so if only one category is outstanding then it could be better than 25% while still not being over valued as a unit. (for instance, take a unit, give one 30% more HP, and the other 30% more attack, and let them battle, and they kill each other just as if they were base stat units. the thinking HP is always better is flawed. take, Abus for instance, high attack, very low HP for a 2 pop unit, yet does very well.

So really base stats show sowars are a slightly better value (for fighting infantry) with a better attack for the cost since there is no 25% better advantage vs inf, though the nagi does fare a little better vs other units it is not meant to actually win vs anything but infantry just like the Sowar. They are very comparable units. One just being noticeably weaker and less effective due to a 25% cost difference and less resilient to any other unit but range inf.

Hussars are general purpose units they do not specialize in anything and do well vs most units except HI and cav archers. (kills goons if they dont micro) Sowars are nagis are specialized units, gends and spahi are special units that are also generalized units and cost 3 pop and almost 2x the cost as a sowar… that makes them very good yes.

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This is a good comparison @howlingwolfpaw . This shows how different units are balanced not in terms of just damage output, but also cost efficiency and pop efficiency.

I know lads, India is a little on the weaker side in treaty. But most of the unit change suggestions I see here want to make it no micro auto win civ xD. India is a melee civ, that’s how this civ is designed. You are rewarded for getting up close and personal with enemy army, and the very good siege ellies allows you to do so. I would not want that dynamic to change.

Karni aura change, a little buff on train time for infantry are good suggestions. Idk, maybe add refrigeration card for India too.

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Civilizations that specialize in melee, in the NR are not competitive. Dragons + skirmishers + cannons dominate in most cases (if not all) and turn a specialized melee army into a kamikaze.

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