Solution to make india more played in treaty

yea! Yabusame’s have a better armour and are faster too ! thye do the job, faster and surely. While howdahs take their time to, get dressed, reach on time and aim and shoot.

Yabusame are more efficient anti-artillery , than Howdahs are anti-cav. Howdahs , anti-artillery atttac is just and extra side-bonus at best.
A Dutch Consulate, would be so great for India.
or
an Otto/British tech to enable 1 or 2 type of artillery, from castle or enable building a foundary

OR

Enable Independence Option from Consulate just as Japanese Isolation, that provide faster unit train time and enable rocket or some artillery

Howdahs need to become better because they cost 6 pop slots. They should get, at least, the same range than yabusames cause if you need to kill cavalry you can train more zambs faster that move faster too. There arent reasons to train eles right now. I only use siege and flail right now…

I think they should just drop the pop room that elephant units take up. That would improve India a lot

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The advantage is that they are very resistant and with too much damage. If they had a little more reach, it would be compensated because that way they have to be put into the wolf’s mouth.

GOSTEI DESSA SUGESTÃO. OBRIGADO POR COMENTAR NESSE POST

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SIM EU NÃO ENTENDO PORQUE NÃO COLOCÃO A POPULAÇAO DE UM ELEFANTE ANTICAVALARIA COM 6 DE POPULAÇAO EN QUANTO OS VAGÕES DE GUERRA DOS ALEMÃES SÃO MAIS BARATOS E TEM 3 DE POPULAÇÃO

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Yep. The lack of good artillery for India makes it too hard to overcome civs with tons of fully upgraded cannons by the 30’ mark. Their only artillery is an expensive elephant with 7 population each who barely have range to hit a fort.

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HI!

Going to add my perspective since India has been my favorite civ for many years but was actually one of the last civs I played much until I discovered how to use them and make them good.

My experience comes from thousands of games of Legacy FFA, but a few years ago took my TR rank to a Major and used mostly India. especially in 1v1. Just as long as your not up against Ports, or China you have a chance. So even with the poorer state India was in then can be made a very effective civ. But I play them a little different.

First The economy, I heavy value a good wood haul to start. India can run low on food or coin and manage ok, but when they are wood poor they come to a screeching halt. I see so many fur trade booms emphasis on so much coin and then they only have so little wood to fight with get in tricky situations. Sure you have 1300 wood to use later but one should not depend on that early on. You may need urumi.

When to trade: well there are 2 ways to go, in a team game a later trade is better but its harder to be as aggressive as India needs to be. A sensible time would be 5 minutes left or send fur trade with 5:40 remaining. a more risky attempt that can leave you food starved and cause a cascading set of problems would be to shoot for 4 minutes. But that also gives little time to coordinate buying units and sending the large consulate armies. After many games had ended I mostly found I had more coin than I ever needed and would be better off not getting wood or food starved. So here is one of the keys that really made India strong and viable to me in TR even with slow train speed. Is not being too greedy with fur trading earlier… with like 6 minutes left before trading a big safety buffer of food is gained. You may have less coin, but you can really delete down villagers since after that will only be collecting food and do not need 100 on food. This gives you a window for a very strong overwhelming army and also helps mitigate the train times where you often have 30-40 pop in training at most times. As long as you are getting the better of the kill ratios and not just letting that extra pop go to waste then its like “doubling” your eco in compared in how effective your opponent can use their resources. Use that extra pop for more high pop units than just spamming out tons of inf.

The objective then is to win the center battle, blitz the center for a FB with sepoy building and then hammer hard to the defenses and break through…

Some things to consider about India differently than other civs. Most civs flood units in to hold a line, and eventually one side breaks to move it forward. India however fights in waves so one might lose an inch of screen to gain 2 then lose one, then gain 2 more. One has to kind of with draw ones troops back to the barracks as new waves comes to reinforce.

Urumi or natives.-- India has some good deck options for TR because it easily maxes out ECO cards and have ample military cards to try different strategies. I used to play with the chakrams and war elephant card. And they certainly are good to consider VS. some match ups. Such as the Brittish where chakrams will really help eat up musket civs. The problem with these is that they eat up a lot of coin and shorten your window to win. I much prefer urumi. and for 750 food that is almost nothing for India and they really add an interesting dynamic to the indian army that really all your waves should be focused around. Building up and retreating until your shipments arrive. Then branching out again. Urumi are great with mahouts since they will create synergy for a melee wall that kills everything and protects them from pike units. This forces the player to make heavy cav which is expensive and India has other great counters for. I like to combine them with extended fortifications so I can make 3-4 towers where I am fighting and pop them out at different flanks.

I tend to rely on sepoy more than howdas, but a few do not hurt… 2-3 is enough just to use as sniping units for cav that get too close to the front lines or sensitive things. I never much liked using India like a skirm goon civ and I think those that do are the ones that find it weaker.

I also do not make many gurkas. 5-10-15 is enough. Just to pressure them at range. The problem is a sweeping heavy cav push can ruin a whole army and that can be very difficult to come back from. So lots of sepoy sometimes get sacrificed to protect the key components that allow them to surgically rip apart armies and bases. If they do send in a cav charge use Sepoy in melee.

There are always times and civs that break the rules. Aztec can make lots of gurkas, Vs Lakota, make howdas and mahouts, etc…) And if what you are doing is not working try switching it up, or splitting the battle to a second place. Never be fixed… its like port players who get fixed on making jinetes when no one is making cav… don’t do that!

Camels-- units I never made but may be viable now that train times are faster but still I think camels in TR do not belong as are just too weak and take up too many card spots to make worth while. If one can spam them out in a low pop situation that could be useful but costly. Remember to make 20 tigers at all time its often the difference between a holding battle and winning steam roll.
No real need to make Rajputs. Upgrading flail elephants is optional but not recommended. They can be a cheap way to take out large FB’s quickly but with walls the AI will stupidly attack segments that don’t matter. But also can be a low pop way to cause some pings on your enemy screen for attention and soften up walls to make a jump to later. or just make them think you are to send troops there.

I know there is a lot of conjecture on siege eles but really they are great. The speed is not to be taken lightly but they should tie culverins in range… or have a resist from siege which I think is actually a better way to make them not TOO op at killing falconetes yet not dying to culvs so easily and essentially cancel each other out per pop and cost. India may never have a good answer for port and Japans long range mortars. but they are death to India as you cant stop them and cant protect your FB.

Mahouts… are… awesome… and… risky. well they will kill infantry faster than cannons can but you gotta kinda watch after them and micro them like you would a cannon to targets. Running from bad engagements, and getting through the ranks to attack the right units… this is where the urumi waves really help clear the path. And all that area melee damage is just so magnificent to see working right.

Start Consulate armies. Everyone expects french gendarmes and they are good and I think DE nerfed it for that matter. But what I always liked better was the 5 falconet or any cannon shipment really. When India is not supposed to have cannons and then does and you have this big start army it can be quite strong.

Other great cards besides the standard ones are the one that adds the castle build limit, extra 10 tigers,

If you are using a ranged mansabar put them in stand still stance and they will live longer.

When to use Taj… it can be tempting to try to use it to breach a wall and get in a eco. For inexperienced players this can work and be GG or even a rage quit. but for a pro you will likely get blocked or consumed and lose your army and momentum. So I mostly use it to either save my base from a side flank, or more regularly if I get in a tough spot and need an army again. For that it can really save you… with bases be patient, and blast a big big holes to get through before committing to over extending to try to snipe the TC.

Its a challenging civ and strong and well rewarding for those that use it right. Have fun GL!

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ótima analise gostei muito da sua explicação, vejo que você realmente e um cara que joga com a índia
mais eu ainda acho que os desenvolvedores deveriam por algo no jogo pra índia treinar mais rápido e ter um canhão pesado ou falconete. muito obrigado por comentar suas dicas são realmente boas

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Obrigado, ao lê-lo, preciso fazer algumas edições para ter certeza de que estou claro em minhas explicações. Eles são o meu civ número um para jogar pela FFA.

Tenha em mente que Sepoy realmente treine alguns pontos mais rápido do que Janissary (bem para o legado, tudo o que sei está em legado)
e para ser o edifício mais rápido civ precisa ser um civ de treinamento mais lento. Estou bem com todos os tempos de trem. Exceto por camelos… se eles os fizessem treinar rápido poderia ser viável… mas eu ainda duvido que isso a não seja preencher uma lacuna pop em um exército moribundo.
O que eu gostaria de ver é fazer com que os carregamentos cheguem mais rápido… Segurando 40 segundos por 19 pop é por isso que a maioria das pessoas não usá-los … mas realmente é isso que torna a Índia igual em poder TR para civs de canhão. Então, se eles pudessem polir isso para gostar metade do tempo… poderia tornar a Índia super forte sem mudar a mecânica.

Só para reiterar Urumi/ mahouts são combo de poder da Índia que faz o canhão DPS fazer. Dar à Índia canhões confiáveis com o cerco muito rápido ele iria torná-los realmente fortes e trancá-lo em um combo gurka howda canhão fazendo-o perder sua maneira única de lutar.

Thank you, in re reading it I need to make some edits to make sure I am clear in my explanations. They are my number one civ to play for FFA.

Keep in mind Sepoy actually train a few points faster than Janissary (well for legacy, everything I know is in legacy)

and to be the fastest building civ need to be a slower training civ. I am pretty Ok with all the train times. Except for camels… if they made them train fast might be viable… but I still doubt it other than to fill a pop gap in a dying army.

What I would like to see though is to make the shipments arrive faster… holding out 40 sec for 19 pop is why most people do not use them… but really this is what makes India equal in TR power to cannon civs. So if they could buff that to like half the time… could make India super strong without changing the mechanics.

Just to reiterate Urumi/ mahouts are Indias power combo that does the DPS cannon do. Giving India dependable cannon with the really fast siege ele would make them really strong and lock it into a cannon gurka howda combo making it lose its unique way to fight.

U have no idea that treaty is played other than Andes as well . India is good on Andes but one of the weakest on other maps .

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verdade, índia so se salvava com a carta de time russa de treinamento e com os upgrades dos nativos incas. e contra civilizações mais fracas.no jogo antigo mais no novo e quase impossível de ganhar no tratado

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india is pretty infamous for their amount of running.

sim mais o que mim deu raiva foi que o meu post foi para tratado e tem pessoas que não entenderão o o termo do post, as alterações serviriam pra supremacia mais acaba sendo usada em jogos muito longos, ate porque todas as civilizações do jogo são muito fortes em jogos longos.

Here is a game I just played with my India TR strategy outlined above. It was Vs a lower rank of 2nd lt. but he chose the map Lrg Texas, and the civ Ports, So I counter picked with the best chance to give him, which was India.

Overall the game lasted 47 minutes on a large map. How did this happen… our armies met at the center for the start. 3 secs prior i put over 50 sepoy in melee and then used my peace treaty and walked my army right on top of his at the end of it, the sepoy and tigers and mahouts in melee with 5 cannons and skirms hitting from the sides pretty much wiped him clean and I still had over 200 pop… So I then rush to his walls and begin making my FB. as I get down to 199 pop… I delete 50 vils and get up to 7 siege eles and start hammering his walls. When he sends culvs I just send them to the other side of the army to hit the walls on that side and flip flop. Mean while he is flooding me with cav to try to get to them again. and each time… sepoy in melee come to same me. When hes all behind walls, I then started to make a few more Gurka than ussual. Trying not to make Howdas… Do some math and see how cheaply I spent coin to win. I spent about 13k coin. out of over 50 left after upgrades (I didn’t pay attention to scores) at the end I had 100k unspent res and he had 12k.
I basically ended up draining him before getting fully into his eco, but the hole I was making was getting pretty wide ready for something soon.

Just look at these numbers and tell me how India is weak.

Military
Player Units Buildings

Made Killed Lost Kill/Loss Ratio Destroyed Lost
Na### 593 268 569 0.47 22 333
HowlingWolfPAw 343 564 316 1.78 33 88||
||||

Economy
Player Food Wood Gold


Na#### 79494 63505 82906
HowlingWolfPAw 136836 68681 92376

Na#### Military Units
Unit Produced Died Survived %


Explorer 1 0 100.00%
Crossbowman 22 22 00.00%
Hussar 196 194 01.02%
Culverin 11 9 18.18%
Dragoon 92 80 13.04%
Mortar 7 7 00.00%
Minuteman 24 24 00.00%
Veteran Cassador 194 177 08.76%
Black Rider 11 11 00.00%
Native Scout 1 1 00.00%
Horse Artillery 4 4 00.00%
Tupi Blackwood Archer 30 30 00.00%

HowlingWolfPAw Military Units
Unit Produced Died Survived %


Mahout Lancer 10 6 40.00%
Howdah 3 0 100.00%
Urumi Swordsman 9 0 100.00%
Brahmin 1 0 100.00%
Axehilt the Tame Tiger 36 28 22.22%
Flail Elephant 1 0 100.00%
Sepoy 176 147 16.48%
Gurkha 38 9 76.32%
Siege Elephant 11 9 18.18%
Brahmin 1 0 100.00%
Wagner the Pet White Tiger 35 27 22.86%
Mansabdar Sepoy 1 1 00.00%
Falconet 5 5 00.00%
Roger’s Ranger 16 14 12.50%

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running only work at low level , at high level running will more likely cost u game .

well there is difference between running and jumping… To be clear do not rush into a defended base hap hazardly, you can not afford to risk losing units recklessly. They just train too slow. but if you are in a bad position taking bad trades, and not protecting something super important then it can be wise to jump battle locations, because India is a fast builder and they may not have good defenses in that area. So there is opportunity in that. Sneaking some sepoy around bases can really make your enemy focus you down and pay attention to other areas. In my battle above I made very few walls post TR. he tried to make some but I kept him so busy at his walls and was just going to push harder if he tried anything like a base trade.

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India coin-eco is weak, they only have 2 HC cards and Karni Mata (Thats a weak bonus). After fur trade if the game go long (team games) you wont get more money cause expensive units as eles (most of them inneficient too).

They dont have canons, a great issue to kill mass infantry (you need wood crates and mahouts havent got the best pathfinding, also I see them too weak for a 7pop unit/ maybe with the new patch I try to use urumis with the new HC splited points)
Consulate’s canons arent an option in treaty, export is too slow to gather and you wont vills on the battlefield having sepoys.
Mansabdars are slow to go to the battlefield quickly unlike daymios and you can lose them around the map (I would add a Hotkey for that).
Also India doesnt get drummers, its infantry is slower than others while Japan gets drummers and golden pavillion.

About eco indians dont get any special bonus aside vills from HC and otto(4) while China gets more than 2 factories (PT+Factory+ Germans) and 10 extra vills (20 on legacy).
In the same way Japan gets 2 arsenals, a church, a bank and shrines that dont need to be gathering wood, they can change between 4 resources.
About Karni, its bonus is ridicoulous compared with most civs.

Someone will talk about cows, China can have a cow boom and Japan gather more XP thanks to a church, a spanish consulate, shrines and torii gates. Where is the Indian bonus?? Also Spanish consulate boost crates, that could be great thanks to India being the Asian that gets more crates (aging up and wood ones) BUT they dont have acces to them.

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It sounds like India is not the civ for you. Its not the easiest or strongest but not all civs can be. I do think its harder to pull off a win in a team game because of feeding and doubling up.

Those are a lot of complaints but are really not well founded.

  1. you say India coin gathering is weak… but you have a fur trade… which adds 25% real percent to all food gathered which is an extremely fast gathering resource. What you are describing comes from a long game when more civs will also be hurting for a resource. If you use a sepoy dependent army instead of a gurka howda, you will see that coin last a looong time. I only had 1 coin card plus fur trade in my deck. Its actually an advantage to not need so many cards because you can use them for more military techs.

  2. Siege ele is a cannon… and a good one if you use them right. They get consulate cannon. Which are not nothing… in that game I just gave stats for my cannons were alive a long time and gave me lots of value… 2.1- Your neglecting to mention 20 tigers as a bonus to an army, and also how India has special units that do the DPS a cannon can do.

  3. I didn’t send a single wood crate that last game and had ample wood to fight with. I had about 20k at start of fight after upgrades… As India wood is very important… I would rather run out of coin.

  4. Mahout pathing is bad, yes, but use them with Urumi and the Urumi help clean up the counters and quickly make way for mahouts.

  5. Yes but they are still worth making, I really only make the sepoy one. It is always good to cycle the idle military button every once in a while… any unit can get lost or idle.

  6. They do not have to be fast… in TR its generally a fixed battle not a lot of kiting or need to chase things like that. Think hammer and anvil style fighting. the Sepoy are the anvil they build and stay by the FB. the hammers are the Elephants, urumi, tigers, that then try to reach out for a strike like a hammer. Fast sepoy would just be ridiculous because of their high Hp, range and melee damage.

  7. I do not know why you are comparing to China. If we compare most civs to China will find some eco lacking options. The Indian free villager is not nothing, and otto 4 vils is like a free card shipment. India almost keeps up with ports in vill production. Vs this 2nd lt. I out villager him and I stayed in age 1 much longer than he. When do you make your cows? I do this in transition to age 3.

  8. you dismiss the karni mata but that 10% stacks on all upgrades. so that is a potential 10 villager increase with no pop, unlike chinas bonus of 20 vils that cost pop. That makes it equal to or better than a factory so not sure why you think it is so bad.

  9. India gets a XP boom… Think its nothing? by the time the game ended I was up 5 shipments. (granted I got a lot of kill XP) I was at my full strength and hes still waiting for his techs to come in. This also helps with the villager boom as once you start making them early are sending cards pretty fast.

@howlingwolfpaw
India is one of my main civs with aztecs, I like different civs.
1-I forget tigers, I use both, better with pumas from TP haha.

2-Karni doesnt work in that way, you can check it with UI, its like eco theory, but worse cause map restricted.

3-Mansabdars take longer to get Battlefield, they could use that HC military points added instead of be trained in Charmine gate. Why sepoy only?? Gurkha is good too, better now that take 1pop instead 2, same with eles but SLOW. This is a great issue if you are far from your base, and I am always in front of enemy walls.

4-I compare with both asians, not with China. China gets more vills and Japan gets XP, no unique bonus for India.

5-France has fur trade but they get coin cards too. And Iro is not the best civ in TR.

6- The wood is not an issue with India thanks to crates, I build tons of barracks, stables and castles, I know about it.

7-I dont use Howdas or Mahouts, I prefer camels instead. Eles cost too much pop. Obviously I use siege eles, flail ones too. Both are good to take down enemy bases but siege eles arent the best “culverins”. They buffed them with pop reduction and thats good.

8-I like to use Taj Mahal to rebuild tons of buildings in FB.

9- Consulate is not an option in TR, you cant train canons because you will run out of export, faster with 50vills less.

10- If you get that wood your Fur trade will be weaker, I prefer wait until crates, 20k will run out very fast if you use mahouts as you said and sending urumis, that crates are a must. Also a good treaty match is longer than 47 minutes.

11-XP boom is good but enemys will have sent every card nevertheless you do (more than 47min). Also training cows have a cost that slow your age up. I prefer do it in V, keeping food to age up fast. Also trading cows with allies help a lot with wood crates, but others have cheaper factories for that job.

12-About villagers, at the end every civ will have max vills. Its good but Its not a lategame bonus, NA can do the same but their ecos arent the best with that. The same for Germans uhlans in TR. Otto consulate could be more than 4villagers, maybe a foundry wagon??

13-Indian consulate is the worse for TR, only crates and units, no techs or buildings. I have tried british surgeons, but field hospitals arent worth it in TR. They could work as new african priest, healing units while fighting. In this way they would be more used in Supremacy too.

@Sotorie @vitorcxb20

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