Some complaints about northerners

[Skadidesu]

@Pine_Cultist

So it’s normal, right? So if he wasn’t a noob, I wouldn’t have had a chance.

Stats from a single match say a lot less about the game then stats from many matches:

aomstats - Age of Mythology: Retold stats and leaderboards

Odin has had an above 50% win rate in almost every patch:

Odin - aomstats

Loki is more of a mixed bag:

Loki - aomstats

That means there is nothing inherently wrong with Norse it’s just the specific Matchup Loki vs. Hades.
A Ra player will probably complain about Loki being OP.

Though the sample size of those stats is not that high.

@Pine_Cultist

The vulnerability of throwing axemen with two tags is not explained by anything.

ok name a single unit that does bonus damage vs. “Ranged” and not just “Archer”.
As far as I know that just makes them benefit from like 1 more relic then before.

Though this change could be there because of some interaction related to the Japanese.

@Pine_Cultist

General phrases. By the way, your words contradict the words of the developers.

It doesn’t say that the Towers are equally strong or anything like that.
Egyptians still have 2 more upgrades to their towers compared to Norse.

@Pine_Cultist

You’re all either lying or crazy.

Why should we be lying? What would we gain from that? Like why would people want one specific pantheon to be weak?

I can see why you would think Norse are weak. Every player has different strength and weaknesses. Every player has preferred ways of playing.
Unless something is utterly OP then there will always be people struggling with it.
But I see you as one of many players that has an experience playing as Norse. Your experience is not more or less valid then others.
I don’t think you are wrong but neither are the people that are arguing with you.

Also look at my profile picture and user name. I’m a Norse main. Though Loki is my least favourite of the 4 Gods.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Yea, we got the fortifications patch rememeber? Even now with the tunning towers are very strong.

Initially, the towers in this game were 40% weaker than in the original, then they were raised to the same level, and now they have been lowered to shit again.

@Cajocu01

Husk, Bers,

Do you even understand what you are talking about? Who are the Huskies? And who are the Bersians? Where is the difference?

@Cajocu01

Sure, keep at it, it sure seems that your logic is working on your winrate.

The lowered Norse will only have this percentage of wins. When I play team matches, players always attack Loki first even if he is not on the edge. Because he always loses classics.

@Cajocu01

I dont even fathom how this idea came to your mind? How does APM impact a static upgrade that makes units go faster. Its not high apm to swap dwarfs and gatherers adjusting for eco

Whose game could be affected by an upgrade that speeds up the upgrade of medium infantry by 20 → 16 seconds?! I repeat once again: there is no point in improving heroics and mythics if you can’t win classic. And classic on Heimdall was always won with towers and walls.

@Skadidesu

That means there is nothing inherently wrong with Norse it’s just the specific Matchup Loki vs. Hades.
A Ra player will probably complain about Loki being OP.

Though the sample size of those stats is not that high.

Ra will complain that Loki is op, I agree, but Ra loses not only to Loki, but to everyone. That’s the first problem.

Ra - aomstats

There is no bad matchup in the game, there are bad gods in the game. (If the Ra is the worst, so Loki have second place of losers)
The second point looks like this: For some reason, I only play against the god with whom I have the worst “match-up”.

My personal winrate against Hades is 75%, which is very different from this table. That is, I am not playing my Elo. And why am I not playing my Elo? Because Loki is the bottom.

@Skadidesu

ok name a single unit that does bonus damage vs. “Ranged” and not just “Archer”.

There is some misunderstanding here. I mean he should be either an archer or infantry, but not both. Shall I name you a unit that has damage against infantry and archers at the same time?

@Skadidesu

It doesn’t say that the Towers are equally strong or anything like that.
Egyptians still have 2 more upgrades to their towers compared to Norse.

Nobody builds towers after getting heroics. They need these towers in classic, and how many upgrades they have there is no longer important. It is wiser to spend the same resources on migdol than to upgrade and build towers.

@Skadidesu

Why should we be lying? What would we gain from that? Like why would people want one specific pantheon to be weak?

I say this because you didn’t look at Ra’s statistics to understand that Loki is simply in second place of losers.

@Cajocu01 And for you I will add that Loki has only one working strategy. And no ifs or buts.

[Urban_Hunter]

Here’s another guy who tried to play Norse. I think his win rate speaks for itself. By the way, hirdmans don’t work))))

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Mythic wars Odin vs Poseidon Rapl vs Kvoth

Thanks for wasting 20 minutes of my life for nothing. I never found the game you were talking about. But I found another one. In which Raple made a few mistakes, but still beat Poseidon.

Matreiuss (Poseidon) vs Rapl (Odin) | Ghostlake

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

Thanks for wasting 20 minutes of my life for nothing. I never found the game you were talking about. But I found another one. In which Raple made a few mistakes, but still beat Poseidon.

Im sad to hear you are unable to search for games. All you had to do is say so. here you go:

Thats the whole series, so dont be confused if it isnt the first game, but its there. Starts at around 42 min.

@Pine_Cultist

@Cajocu01 And for you I will add that Loki has only one working strategy. And no ifs or buts.

Lots of ifs and buts but i know im wasting my time on you.

Btw aprecciate you sending a game from 3 years ago to talk about hirdman.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

Ra will complain that Loki is op, I agree, but Ra loses not only to Loki, but to everyone. That’s the first problem.

Ra demolishes loki, eggy vs norse is very unfair for the norse player at proper level. Theres a very recent showmatch between Recon and Kvoth if you wanna see how. If you struggle to find it do ask.

I do agree theres something for eggy, they struggle a lot a lower elos but are very strong when played properly.

Btw if you wanna use aomstats, you should try to take into account how much ELO differences skew % winrate. It was done last week to filter games with Elo differences higher than 20, since its kinda unfair to take a 1700 vs a 1400 game and assume anything more than the better player won because they play better.

The colums from left to right: God, Number of Games played and Winrate

Thats for all Elos, from last patch

[Urban_Hunter]

@Skadidesu What can you say about the huskarls? And don’t tell me that the attack position was terrible, 2/3 of them ran up to the archers, but didn’t kill anyone.

You disagree with my opinion on the throwing axeman, right? How do you counter that for Norse?

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Btw aprecciate you sending a game from 3 years ago to talk about hirdman.

That’s the whole point. That his addition is not justified in any way.

@Cajocu01

The colums from left to right: God, Number of Games played and Winrate

First you tell me that I’m wrong about RA. And then you show that he has a 47% win rate. Yes, I see that you’re trying to say that I have a very bad Loki, but at least reread what you wrote in a row.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

That’s the whole point. That his addition is not justified in any way.

It simply gave norse more options, you are really dying over a pointless hill. if it was for the worse sure, but you lost nothing and simply got 2 better units out of that trade. A better specific anti calv unit and a better generalis unit.

@Pine_Cultist

First you tell me that I’m wrong about RA. And then you show that he has a 47% win rate. Yes, I see that you’re trying to say that I have a very bad Loki, but at least reread what you wrote in a row.

i did say several things, i know its hard for you to keep track, let me list them for you:

1. When played Properly ra (eggy overall) crushes norse, meaning at high level.
2. Eggy struggles at low elo
3. The stats i gave are for all elos
4. More than 75% of the player base is below 1200 Elo (low elo players)

Conclusion: Most of the games will be of low elo eggy, and since low elo eggy struggles, it will tank its winrate.

Wanna see how good eggy is when player properly? Check the tournament winrates, eggy has been solid in all tournaments. Just in the last one, isis had almost a 100% winrate, the most ban/picked god in the whole tournament (not just by one player), it only lost 1 game in the last patch, yet when taking all the player base its below 50% winrate.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

You disagree with my opinion on the throwing axeman, right? How do you counter that for Norse?

Watch the game i told you, its basically that.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

a better generalis unit.

Who is Gody? Gody has already been in the game in a worse version.

@Cajocu01

A better specific anti calv unit

Because of him, the upgrade of the ulfsarks at Braga was nerfed and the throwing axemen were pushed to the bottom.

@Cajocu01

i did say several things, i know its hard for you to keep track, let me list them for you:

1. When played Properly ra (eggy overall) crushes norse, meaning at high level.
2. Eggy struggles at low elo
3. The stats i gave are for all elos
4. More than 75% of the player base is below 1200 Elo (low elo players)

Conclusion: Most of the games will be of low elo eggy, and since low elo eggy struggles, it will tank its winrate.

Wanna see how good eggy is when player properly? Check the tournament winrates, eggy has been solid in all tournaments. Just in the last one, isis had almost a 100% winrate, the most ban/picked god in the whole tournament (not just by one player), it only lost 1 game in the last patch, yet when taking all the player base its below 50% winrate.

If the developers intended Egypt as an Invoker in Dota, that if you don’t know how to play it you have zero results, and if you know how you can kill three opponents in one go, I agree.
But if Egypt can’t win 1vs2(3), and it’s just difficult, just like that for no reason - then this design is crap. There are a lot of Egypt fans in the game who will just quit the game because it’s too difficult.

@Cajocu01

Watch the game i told you, its basically that.

Yes, I’ll check it out, I’m watching a video right now about Magic dropping the game and going into AoE 4.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

Who is Gody? Gody has already been in the game in a worse version.

Yea i did miss godi.

And i know you dont know your units so ill type it complete

Got a way to deal with range myth units and flying units = Godi
Got a better generalist unit than what they had in the previous game = Berserk
Got a dedicated anti calv unit which they can balance separate from the generalist unit so both can do their purpose = Hirdman

@Pine_Cultist

Because of him, the upgrade of the ulfsarks at Braga was nerfed and the throwing axemen were pushed to the bottom.

Even without Godi existing TA would still get double tagged, same as Chariot archers and Tuma

@Pine_Cultist

that if you don’t know how to play it you have zero results, and if you know how you can kill three opponents in one go, I agree.

Its not that its hard, its simply more punishing, for example, everything in their kit requires effort to properly use. Obelisk allows you to see all the map if you do it properly, but lower elo players forget their priest exists and can make them after archaic. They also dont really do much with the vision they gt from them.

If you get 1000 wood as norse/greek because you forgot to re arrange villagers, etc you can just spam buildings, houses, place down farms, make army or trade for a deficit. if you are eggy you better hope your opponent isnt mass calv because you are either making slingers, Chariots into that or trading for a deficit.

Theres also the thing for ra specifically people still play the 2 tc raingame play that was very very very highly tuned in extended edition and less so in voobly and dont adapt to other types of play or at least thats what i see most ra players i get on team games do and loose to.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Got a way to deal with range myth units and flying units = Godi

Only used as a flak gun, and also in situations when the enemy has a lot of counter-infantry. And by the way, I didn’t say anything bad about him. Without him, it would have been impossible to fight Hel.

@Cajocu01

Got a better generalist unit than what they had in the previous game = Berserk

What exactly is he better at?

@Cajocu01

Got a dedicated anti calv unit which they can balance separate from the generalist unit so both can do their purpose = Hirdman

This is a nerf.

@Cajocu01

Even without Godi existing TA would still get double tagged, same as Chariot archers and Tuma

And you’re a little crazy, right?

@Cajocu01

Theres also the thing for ra

I can simply repeat what I already said.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

What exactly is he better at?

Dont look at the flat number, look at dps. Berserk like fanatic hits twice, it has higher dps, you can mouse over it to see.

Also more armor

@Pine_Cultist

This is a nerf.

Its better at dealing with calv than ulfsak ever was

@Pine_Cultist

And you’re a little crazy, right?

Not really, retold doesnt have the same hidden value design old aom had, it works purely on counter damage vs units, Ta got adjusted into that system, godi existing or not didnt cause it.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Not really, retold doesnt have the same hidden value design old aom had, it works purely on counter damage vs units, Ta got adjusted into that system, godi existing or not didnt cause it.

Especially for readers, I will repeat it once again. TA - was infantry and was countered only by anti-infantry units and anti-archer specialists (peltast, turma). NO ONE ELSE. Moreover, a multiplier against TA was 2 times less than against regular archers.

[Cajocu01]

@Pine_Cultist

Especially for readers, I will repeat it once again. TA - was infantry and was countered only by anti-infantry units and anti-archer specialists (peltast, turma). NO ONE ELSE. Moreover, a multiplier against TA was 2 times less than against regular archers.

If your argument is that being 2 tagged is worse, yea 100%, no unit benefits from it. If you logic is that godi is responsible for that you got something else going on… Only thing ta gets is more range

I like that you stay silent on the points where you are wrong dont even adress them.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

Dont look at the flat number, look at dps. Berserk like fanatic hits twice, it has higher dps, you can mouse over it to see.

What nonsense are you talking about. His attack speed hasn’t changed. It’s always been 0.7. The only thing they added to him was the vampire at Tyr, while lowering all other stats. Yes, the armor from hacking has increased by 6%. And HP has decreased by 10.8%. And damage has decreased by 25%.

[Urban_Hunter]

@Cajocu01

If your argument is that being 2 tagged is worse, yea 100%, no unit benefits from it. If you logic is that godi is responsible for that you got something else going on… Only thing ta gets is more range

Do you even remember what I wrote?) I never said anything about Godi. Go get some sleep.

[Skadidesu]

@Pine_Cultist

(If the Ra is the worst, so Loki have second place of losers)

Loki is above 50% win rate in all most all ELOs.

Far away from the 2nd worst.

@Pine_Cultist

My personal winrate against Hades is 75%, which is very different from this table. That is, I am not playing my Elo. And why am I not playing my Elo? Because Loki is the bottom.

Imagine there is a game where you just trow a dice once.
And then you have 1000 people play this game.
It’s very likely that there is one person in that group that lost >60% of their matches and then they go to the forums and complain about the dice being rigged.
You are that guy. You had bad luck with who you were matched with.

@Pine_Cultist

There is some misunderstanding here. I mean he should be either an archer or infantry, but not both. Shall I name you a unit that has damage against infantry and archers at the same time?

Ah ok you mean the Archer+Infantry armour.
It’s not that much of a change since all those units used to have bonus damage vs. Throwing Axemen sacrificially.
Also bonus damage was increased a lot of all units in AoMR.
Throwing Axeman went from 2.25x vs Infantry (and 2.75x vs. Spear Infantry) to just 3x vs. all Infantry.

Other units were changed in a similar was, Turma and Chariot Archer are now tagged as Cavalry for example while Cheiroballistas got the Archer tag like Throwing Axeman did.
So the same thing happened to Egyptians and Atlanteans too so 3/4 civs are affected.

@Pine_Cultist

I say this because you didn’t look at Ra’s statistics to understand that Loki is simply in second place of losers.

In which statistic is he the 2nd worst?

@Pine_Cultist

What can you say about the huskarls?

Nothing.
It’s not about what to do in what game situation.
My argument is that other people don’t struggle playing the Norse so buffing them would make them OP.
You don’t want to just play against other Norse players on the Ladder do you? Because that would happen if Norse would get buffed.

[AxelusThe3rd]

@Pine_Cultist

What nonsense are you talking about. His attack speed hasn’t changed. It’s always been 0.7. The only thing they added to him was the vampire at Tyr, while lowering all other stats. Yes, the armor from hacking has increased by 6%. And HP has decreased by 10.8%. And damage has decreased by 25%.

Attack in old AoM was ALWAYS depicted as DPS, the damage dealt was multiplied by their attackspeed. Old base DPS was 9 (6.3 per attack assuming attackspeed was 0.7), new is 6,5/0,7=9.285714. And in your example 9*(1+.4+.3+.1)=16.2 (Shown as 16), new is 12.025/0.7=17.17857142 a slight increase actually.

@Pine_Cultist

What can you say about the huskarls? And don’t tell me that the attack position was terrible, 2/3 of them ran up to the archers, but didn’t kill anyone.

In your video with the huskarls, you did run into 8 (Hero) Chiero Ballistae and 11 Satyrs. Between 0:22 and 0:25 your army is stuck eating full courses of AoE attacks and Cheiro volleys. You did kill 3 of the Satyrs, but Huskarls don’t get bonus damage against them. Sorry to break it to you, but your attack position was terrible. You could have gotten a better surround, used Raiding Cavs (which doesn’t take x5 Multiplier from Cheiroballista) or a combination of the two.