Some small civ change ideas and general balance ideas

If conqs got a castle age buff. Then that would cause mass out cry. They are fine in castle age but their weaknesses should be addressed and this is the best way to do so.

Elite conq is rarely researched. And I dont disagree spanish late game is not bad. But getting there is not easy.

Maybe they don’t need a PA reduction in castle age but I figure if they are going to take less damage from some of their counters. Then it needs to be done.

Spanish on arabia nowadays dont really feel as strong and most top players can agree with that. Conqs are not what they used to be.

Hard to avoid power creep with conqs

3 Likes

PLEASE NO!!!

2 Likes

Then suggest a better idea as I feel the relic bonus is rather lazy.

If the relics collected gave hp regeneration at a very balanced rate that isn’t game breaking then I would be on board for that. But most would not like that idea.

I’m not going to sit here and pretend 14+8 paladins or 10+6 knights arent broken because they are. Whatever way you look at it.

Dropping it to a +3 only without a UT and people would still not be happy. So where do you draw the line?

As for indians 1v1. I find their play style is still okay vs any civ that isn’t siege ram halb or meso. A rework on hand cannoneers could rectify their 1v1 issues.

2 Likes

Its less than what the saracens + their own civ bonus gives. I am fine if its kept to +2.

But then saracens would need to be addressed elsewhere. Perhaps a zealotry change. But who knows.

2 Likes

Man but being a team bonus, imagine facing briton arbalest with 11 range and +3 bonus damage vs buildings or Mayans with the bonus + obsidian arrows. I’d rather disinstall the game than facing those things on TGs.

I think that saracens should be addressed elsewhere, idk how because right now the civ is a complete mess.

5 Likes

its less lazy then “i research a tech and get +5 attack”
its less lazy then “I research a tech and get extra health or armor”
you have to actually go out and pick up those relics, and work towards achieving them.

and yet clearly the civ is still balanced, winrates reflect that. so clearly the civ has clear weaknesses to offset those bonuses, for example, their weaker long term economy.

the point is, they got completely gutted in 1v1 because people wanted them nerfed in team games. and here you are about to do the same with lithuanians in 1v1, nerfing them hard because you don’t like them in team games despite winrates saying balanced.

4 Likes

They are a unique civ with really good options. These options are just a bit overshadowed by the archer bonus. Since DE I have never ever seen a smush again :confused:

1 Like

#makemonksgreatagain

2 Likes

I think their issue is that none of their bonuses is something they can use in any game… Archer bonuses are useless if they don’t win fight, castle age UT is super situational, imp UT is situational too, some bonuses only work on water maps (and they’re non even that good there). Even market bonus, while funny and powerful, does really help only if you build your strategy around that and you go for YOLO strats… If you want to play meta it doesn’t really do that much compared to other eco bonuses.

So I guess their problem is that, while they’re not bad, they kinda falls on the generic side if you don’t go for specific YOLO strats.

Maybe make madrasah effect as civ bonus and give them a new UT might be something to begin with

2 Likes

Are there proofs that Lithuanians are being overpicked in TGs because of that? No, people still overfavour the Franks in almost every TG, and Franks are too overpicked, so no.
Is really powerful?, yes, but is in very counted games and even if you get 16 attack Knights or 22 attack Paladins your victory isn’t guaranteed, Odette, a very strong czech female player faced in ranked 1v1 someone who collected all 4 relics and went to full paladin against Bulgarians by Odette, that just ended with the Lithuanian player being utterly defeated.
And you should consider, any halb still dies in 4 hits against 22 attack, game breaker when it was 23 attack.
And also you are removing the only thing that makes the Lithuanians funny to play in both 1v1 and teamgames just because “is too strong” so go ahead and remove the extra melee armor of the Teuton paladin, the extra HP of the Frankish one and the extra speed of the Cuman paladin if you want equal paladin TGs. Said this with huge experience in TGs

:man_facepalming: Not thematically fitting and Mongols already have that.

You aren’t hitting the supposed problem of the Tatars, their so smooth transition from feudal to castle age with drushing and cavalry archer rush on open maps, first, let the Tatars be strong at the S tier side for now, they deserved that, second, I would just limit the sheep for 1 in feudal and reduce the extra food to 40% so their drush-FC is still a strong strat with them but not so smooth and the they will need several farms, let the extra 2 sheeps for new TCs because the Tatars were just trash in Arena or closed maps, yes their new boom is incredible but they need that, and also what is your booming meta with them? Steppe Lancers, Keshiks? the attack of both is pretty low, and the closed maps don’t have elevatiosn so, as I said before, they aren’t oppresive here. Said this with experience by playing with them.

2 Likes

Well the teambonus is already +2 (yes i know it says +1, but it isn’t; it makes feudal archers deal 2 instead of 0 dmg to buildings), so the change to +3 would really not be that massive, right?

1 Like

Hm, i kinda agree its annoying, but it is also one of the big things that makes the civ playable…i like how you are really forced to fight saracen archers instead of just camping behind walls. If we remove that, they are simply not good anymore.

What and WHHHHAAAT?
So you want them to be really strong early castle age (TC with +2 kills everything they can throw at you) but make them unable to actually fight, as their baseline units are just generic without an eco bonus? This does really not sound well thought out. Right now, its really, really hard to fight early castle age, until you manage to grab 1-2 relics. But with your changes, that period would extend all the way to late castle or even imp. With no eco bonus and only 10% speed on spear/skirm, how are lith supposed to survive until then?
This btw is also true for teamgames. I play them a fair bit and lith are by no means OP; They struggle so much in early castle age. You could limit their bonus to +3, but locking pretty much the only bonus the civ has for the midgame behind a UT will just kill it.

Pretty unneeded buffs.

You realise this is an overall buff? HC is more about the cost than the research time, as you will have multiple TCs anyway. Just research it right early castle age, when you wont have to food to 100% keep your 3TCs running anyway. So you are reverting a justified nerf in exchange for a pseudo-nerf? Why? Vikings are super strong and very flexible and really dont need buffs.

4 Likes

Overall the ideas are quite solid. Still I do think that Indians have been overcomplicated with the last patch, while Italians remain a civ with basically zero land bonuses, the worst in the game.

I mean, these two civs should get the majority of the attention, but all the changes you proposed are good.

My only concern is the Lithuanian nerf. I do not feel is as necessary at all… why do you say it is so easy to get all the relics? It is quite predictable

2 Likes

This, is about that requieres a lot of the player agency to collect the relics, is funny. Why is bad lol

1 Like

First of all: tatars right now are way too strong for many reasons. Sheep with extra food, extra sheep in feudal, free techs, extra hill bonus, the keshiks are all good reason to nerf the civ.
Second of all:

no, there’s no such thing as “deserving to be S tier”. ATM they are broken and should be nerfed, just like aztecs neeeded to be nerfed and chinese need to be nerfed

2 Likes

Agree. Insane eco+Insane Military+Insane UU=Broken.

1 Like

Sure I don’t negate that point, I just wnat them to not be weak as they were before the patch.

Agreed, but go and try to propose a nerf and the people will rant with this civ lol

1 Like

I think Keshiks +10 gold and remove the Castle Age sheep would be enough.

1 Like

I think the opposite, just increase the food cost of the Keshik to 60.
Their damage isn’t like Leitis

1 Like

Elite is not researched simply because conqs aren’t that useful in imp once food economy is more stabilized and trash can be more easily produced to counter them, conqs are good in castle age because of their ability to get through walls, beating stuff like knights, pikes and mangonels. The micro potential is gone by imp where your fights are much larger and conqs aren’t that good anymore.

7 Likes