At least in Chinese history education, the biggest characteristic of the Ming and Qing Dynasties is the long-term closed-door policy. It is precisely because the government monopolized foreign trade, and monopolized foreign trade in the form of tributary trade, that a large number of coastal residents were forced to become pirates or illegal maritime merchants. This eventually forced the Qing government to open a port in Guangzhou, which became the only port for foreign trade, and even so, these operators all had official backgrounds, and the cargo throughput was very low compared with the real free trade countries with foreign countries.
In addition, Magarni of Britain once went to China to meet the emperor, hoping that China would abandon this strategy and be able to do business with Britain on an equal footing, but the response given by the Chinese side was that China was rich in products and did not need to trade with other countries. So at least for the Chinese educated in Chinese history, the closed-door policy is one of the most typical characteristics of the Ming and Qing Dynasties.
The RedCoats in the Chinese Consulate and ones in the Indian Consulate are the same unit. The Ordinance Besteiro Crossbowmen in the Indian Consulate and ones in the Japanese Consulate are the same unit.
The civs share the allies’ units in the Consulates, which means the allies cannot give different units to the civs. Just like you cannot make French ally provide units in Chiese outfits since those units would also be in the Indian Consulate. You give units a new skin to serve an civ, and you cannot use them to serve another civ. The work required to change this is probably greater than simply reskinning European units.
Of course, programs and art modules are made by humans so we cannot say they cannot be changed. But why? Regardless of the history, since the Consulate represents diplomacy and cooperation between the East and the West, it is not unreasonable for Europeans to send troops to help their East allies in the game.
I personally don’t pursue this. When I refer to the artillery with local crews, I’m concerned with units like Mysorean Rockets that are shipped in from Home City.
Hongyipao/Red Coat Cannon is the most iconic product of Chinese reverse engineering of European artillery. People in the Ming Dynasty used this to fight against the invading Manchus and killed Nurhachi.
In the game, it is possible to introduce cards “Red Coat Cannons”, “General Cannons” and “Great General Cannons” for the Chinese to ship respectively Falconets, Mortars and Heavy Cannons operated by Chinese crews.
Influenced by the Ottomans and Persians, excessively heavy cannons were much favored in India. During the time of the early Mughal emperors, many extremely heavy artillery were manufactured and given heroic names. They were not only weapons, but “real works of art”. Babur, Humayun and Akbar all used them to success in their campaigns. But despite their prowess, later people realized that the cost of moving and deploying them made them not worth using. In the game, we could give Indians one more card giving them access to Great Bombards operated by Indian crews.
Compared with the active learning, manufacture and use of matchlock guns, the Japanese are less active in the use of artillery. However, Tokugawa used four culverins imported from the British during the Siege of Osaka. A card for shipping Culverins operated by Japanese crews could be nice.
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They can be reskinned just like the multiple versions of revolutionaries.
Also it seems now with the unique royal guard skins, when you choose one ally (eg Portuguese) it shadow calls the skin change and it also affects the Dutch blue guards you get before (need to further investigate on the technical end).
So why not just make them different units with different visuals but similar stats.
Also I’m all for consulate allies being more civ-specific rather than shared. The same British consulate can have differential bonuses for Chinese and Indians for example. They tried to force every European (at that time) in and make them synergize with the civ. This leads to both allies that do not fit the civ and bonuses that do not fit the ally.
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The Meiji suggestion where units transform is cool. Buuuutttttttttt…Do the cards that affect the units transform too just like Brits?
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I don’t think arrogant Sinocentrism constitutes isolation. There was a degree of isolationism especially during the period the Canton system was in effect but it was nowhere close to the same degree of isolation that was imposed by Japan. Japan was diplomatically closed off to everyone except some limited access for the Chinese, Koreans, and Dutch. Even during the most extreme trade restrictions, China still allowed everyone to trade through Guangzhou, was fighting wars of conquest on all its land borders, maintained the tributary system, and had to contend with the illegal ##### trade. That’s a lot of foreign relations for a country that’s supposedly isolated.
It’s also not very consistent to say the isolation is based on Qing policy and have it enable primarily Ming units like Three-Eyes Gunners (yes I’m aware Ming had similar policies, but the most restrictive time was under the Qing). When it comes to a Chinese consulate option, I think it would make more sense for a Korean civ than giving it to China. Korea could have both Ming and Qing as options for their Consulate to represent the Chinese Suzerainty. Conversely, China should have its tributary states as options.
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To be honest, I can understand, but personally don’t think it’s important (and I’m not against it, of course). The developers brought new skins for Europeans, and thus new skins for consulate units. European armies serving Asians also makes sense in the game’s worldview. If they are going to do anything for Asians, there are more important things to do. For example, the shipments of single artillery in the Consulate, and allowing TP to choose to provide export and so on. Again, I’m not against it too.
A degree of isolationism = there was isolationism. Haha.
I guess what you can’t get is how Asians, especially Chinese themselves, understand that period of history. The so-called isolationism, in addition to policy, is more ideological and cultural. If you just focus on how many western countries couldn’t trade or enter, it is impossible to understand China’s isolationism.
This kind of value of unspoken isolationism deeply constrained Chinese society and court at that time. Although Japan had strict isolationism in policy, it actually had a high acceptance of Western culture, which is reflected in the successful entry of Dutch knowledge into Japan society, and its rapid and successful modernization after its open.
At the same time, although Chinese isolationism still allows Westerners to enter Guangzhou in terms of policy, they did not cooperate with the West at more levels, did not learn Western culture, knowledge and technology, and did not buying goods and services provided by Westerners. Not cooperating, not learning, not buying, only caring about the own things, this is exactly the way Isolation is expressed in the game.
The Three-Eyes Gunner is mentioned because it is quite distinctive and would work well as a unique unit. The intention has nothing to do with the Ming Dynasty.
Since it’s a Chinese civilization, the Three-Eyes Gunner has no problem being a Chinese unit.
First of all, I don’t care about the Korean civilization that doesn’t exist yet. If I design the Korean civilization, which was known as the hermit kingdom, I might make it an Asian civilization without the Consulate, and give it other unique uses for export.
Second, the tributary mechanic you’re talking doesn’t seem like a good deal, especially when you can simply introduce cards in Chinese HC to ship tributary state units to represent this relationship very well.
And then, the countries in consulates should not be tributary states. Tributaries did not have consulates as they were not equal with China. Although Western countries were once regarded by China as paying tribute, starting with the Russians, their power disintegrated the world view of the Chinese tributary system. Western gave China lessons that they were different from those tributary states.
The timeline of AoE3 is the disintegration of the ancient tributary system and the establishment of the modern diplomatic system. It’s odd for British to be in Chinese consulates with Koreans in my opinion, like selling motorcycles and scythed chariots at the same time in a bike shop.
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Only in the sense of restricted trade with Westerners. Interactions with their Asian neighbours was as extensive as ever during this time of “isolation”.
That’s a stark contrast with Japan which was much more cut off from all outsiders. The motivations are also completely different. After events like the Shimabara Rebellion, the Japanese feared foreign influence corrupting their country and closed off to protect themselves. The Chinese simply viewed outsiders as inferior and only imposed restrictions to prevent foreigners from stealing Chinese technology. When foreigners brought things of value like bullion they were happy to make an exchange. An unequal view of foreigners is not the same as isolationism.
You can only have one ally at a time so I don’t see any contradiction. The tributary system was functioning fine at the start of the timeframe and eventually disintegrated as Europeans gained power over the region. Ideally that could be represented by unlocking new allies in later ages. So early on you could have tributary allies like Korea, Vietnam, and Ryukyu, and later you could have a European option like the British East India company.
Japan also interacted with Asian neighbors during the period of isolationism, which is fine.
Check the wiki:
Japan was not completely isolated under the sakoku policy. Sakoku was a system in which strict regulations were placed on commerce and foreign relations by the shogunate and certain feudal domains (han). There was extensive trade with China through the port of Nagasaki, in the far west of Japan, with a residential area for the Chinese. The policy stated that the only European influence permitted was the Dutch factory at Dejima in Nagasaki. Western scientific, technical and medical innovations flowed into Japan through Rangaku (“Dutch learning”). Trade with Korea was limited to the Tsushima Domain (today part of Nagasaki Prefecture) and the wakan in Choryang (part of present-day Busan). There were also diplomatic exchanges done through the Joseon Tongsinsa from Korea. Trade with the Ainu people was limited to the Matsumae Domain in Hokkaidō, and trade with the Ryūkyū Kingdom took place in Satsuma Domain (present-day Kagoshima Prefecture). Apart from these direct commercial contacts in peripheral provinces, trading countries sent regular missions to the shōgun in Edo and at Osaka Castle.
China under the Ming and Qing dynasties as well as Joseon had implemented isolationist policies before Japan did, starting with the Ming implementing Haijin from 1371. Unlike sakoku, foreign influences outside East Asia were banned by the Chinese and Koreans as well, while Rangaku allowed Western ideas other than Christianity to be studied in Japan. China was forced to open up in the Treaty of Nanking and in subsequent treaties, following its defeat in the First ##### War. Joseon, which had developed a reputation as a hermit kingdom, was forced out of isolationism by Japan in the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1876, making use of gunboat diplomacy which had been used by the United States to force Japan to open up.
You still miss the point.
The point is that they didn’t learn Western technology and knowledge, didn’t buy Western goods, didn’t use Western services, and didn’t have more cooperation with the West, not just unequal views. Explaining with the game, this means refusing to use European units, refusing to research European technology, refusing to buy European shipments, and even refusing to be affected by the passive effects of European allies. How is this not the isolation in the game.
If you’re stuck on whether they can trade with foreigners, then you don’t understand China.
No. Such a bad idea to the Consulate. Even I suggested the US as the fifth ally, I wouldn’t make it inaccessible early game just because the US came to China later than the European countries.
Thematically, this is inappropriate. Interacting with tributaries is different than interacting with Europeans. Tributary missions were irregular, and there was no resident envoys. The tributary system was not a normal diplomatic relationship, and there was no diplomatic buildings like consulates or embassies anyway.
Mechanically, what you really want is just how African civs work. Perhaps that is suitable for expressing the tribute system, but it is impossible to use it on non-African civilizations in terms of games.
Personally, giving up some European countries in consulates for those tributaries is not worth it. Europeans had far more influence on the China than the tributaries. Probably you could try introducing a new building besides the Consulate to give China access to tributary units, but anyway I think accessing those units via cards is still the more easy, efficient and accurate way, like Napoleon France using cards to visit sister republics’ units.
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Then don’t call it Chinese Isolation, call it Chinese Trade Embargoes and feature a mix of Chinese-specific units and a smattering of European artillery armed by Chinese soldiers. It isn’t isolation, but it is absolutely a refusal of direct foreign aid from foreign soldiers.
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Officially, it should be called “Haijin” (海禁), which literally means “sea ban”.
But in the Chinese-speaking environment, this period of history is often directly referred to as “closing and locking country” (閉關鎖國), or as just simply “isolation”. This is how they understand this part of their own history.
But, nice try.
There will be no European artillery. The Qing court did not attach much importance to European artillery. The cannons that many European envoys presented to the Chinese emperor as “gifts” were placed in warehouses as “tributes”. Also, if Chinese Isolation (or whatever it’s called) is also providing European artillery (even if operated by Chinese crews), then it’s not much different from European allies.
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The netherlands were one of the few countrires Japan would allow to trade with them, since they didn’t try to convert them to Christianity like catholic countries did.
Consulate Dutch needs reworking both from a historical and gameplay perspective.
They should not give a church wagon for historical reasons as they were allowed to trade with japan because they didn’t proselytise. Church wagon should be given to spain as there were spanish missionaries.
From a gameplay perspective why would a japanese player spend their valuable export on musketeers and mortors?..they already have them.
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I just don’t think “Chinese Isolation” is at all accurate as description for an era where China was waging wars on all fronts and being the hegemon of all its neighbours. Yes they were unreceptive of European ideas, but they still did tolerate trade in bullion, and their period of restricted trade was far shorter and less extensive than Japan. Japan had a small elite that was receptive to European ideas, but were still actually isolated and not out conquering and genociding all their neighbours.
The Consulate is not mandatory, so it’s not like you couldn’t emulate this in the game by not picking an alliance. And just like in history, you’d fall behind by ignoring western technology. Picking a specific Chinese option at the Consulate that is supposed to represent Qing era policy by giving Ming units isn’t really a better representation of this.
In the original game Consulate options were locked behind home city progression just like cards. So later options like Germans weren’t immediately available. That’s obviously not a great system, but having more powerful alliances locked behind later ages isn’t inherently bad and could be a way to balance more powerful options.
Why does it need to be an equal relationship to have representation? It could styled as a “demand tribute” option to show they’re a subordinate party. Technically embassy would be the more accurate term, but that’s already taken for a different building.
In my opinion, the Consulate system is so incredibly bad it needs a complete rework or should be removed entirely. I have no problem “giving up” some European options. Export is not integrated into any other system and the system greatly limits the civ design by making them rely on Europeans for artillery, healers, and other technology that there are obvious native equivalents for. Maybe changing the name of the building would be part of a rework to have it be more integrated and sensible.
At best, the Consulate only tenuously works for Japan. For India it doesn’t make any sense and is hugely detrimental to the civ’s design so it should just be removed. For China, receiving units primarily from tributary states would be a much more interesting setup. It could also integrate nicely with any new east Asian civs since many of them were tributaries and could in turn have a Chinese option at their Consulate.
In some sense we’re just talking past each other. We both think more cool unique Chinese and tributary state units would be cool, we just have a different interpretation of what the best way to do that would be.
Maybe not with the consulate at all. It’s a unique, Chinese-specific mechanic that sounds like it might be better emulated with something more unique to China than the consulate.
I’d have no problem scrapping the Consulate, but a tributary system mechanic doesn’t necessarily need to be Chinese specific. The tributary system went two ways, so it could easily be the basis of a new consulate-like system.
The Consulate could be replaced with a more generally applicable building, for example, a Pavilion (has connotations of both international representation and Asian architecture). Alliances with both Asian and Western powers could be conducted through the Pavilion. This focus would work best for the East Asian civs and the West Asian / Islamic civs could be given a mechanic more fitting to them. Just removing export could also improve the system as it currently isn’t integrated into any other aspect of the game.
The East Asian civs could have options like as follows:
Japan - Portuguese, Dutch, Japanese Isolation, Americans (most similar to the current consulate system)
China - Korea, Vietnam, Ryukyu, Siam, Malaysia, Nepal, Tibet, British (could have multiple non-European allies at an escalating cost to simulate the tributary system)
Korea - Ming, Qing, Hermit Kingdom, Japan
Vietnam - Chinese, Siamese, Cambodians, French, Dutch
Siam, Malaysia, Burma, etc could also be potential civs that use this mechanic.
West Asian civs like Indians (Mughals, Marathas, Mysoreans, etc), Persians, Omanis, Uzbeks, and maybe Javanese could forego this diplomatic relation mechanic and have something else revolving around their connection to Islam (unique buildings like Bazaars, Caravansaris, Mosques, etc).
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These and the Canadian Loyalists available to Haudenosaunee are still Consulate armies interally and are tagged as such, IIRC.
Japan kinda already has two such pieces? I will admit that combining Falconets and Culverins is insane role compression (not to mention saving on Population space) and highly irritating to play against. For whatever reason Cetbangs and Haud/Maya Light Cannon are not nearly as annoying. China does have the makings of a roster as well, since they’ve got the Flamethrower (falconet/grenadier combo if you squint), Flying Crow, and Hand Mortar.
That’s why I gave an entire full artillery roster to my Korean civ outline. Hwacha for the Falconet role, Bullangi for the anti-artillery role, and Wan’gu for the mortar/anti-building role.
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I know that. I’m not talking about how they are implemented, but their appearance.
For example Pulaski and Kovat were real cavalry commanders that brought European style cavalry to the continental army.
US did have dragoon regiments and Mexico did have cuirassier regiments. Those all fit in the civ representation.
However HRE (“Germans”) sending doppelsoldner to China, or Dutch sending blue guards to Japan, makes less sense than these examples. I think the Asian consulate units can be slightly tweaked or reskinned to be more historically relevant.
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A probable solution is, DIFFERENT Style of consulate for different regions of asia.
Japan & China & Maybe Korea/East Asians too, can have a Improvemnt based consulate with
- 3Euro (Almost similar as now)
- 2Tributary (1 being Korea maybe ?)
- 1Isolation-ish. (name can be different and culturally appropriate for civ)
Indian Sub continent can have a Economic focused Bazaar/Consulate with
- 3Euro (But with mostly tangible upgrades, bank/LimitedArsenal etc. and NO or LITTLE military units. Artillery enablement maybe (Im looking towards french canons)? too much ?)
- (1 African & 1 Latin American) & 1Turkish (Provides units and non-europeon ECO and Units)
- 1 Revolt/Freedom Struggle - (Purely Indegenious military Merc/Outlaw focused. Arsonist can play Major role/upgrade here)
Any further South East or West Asian civs can have their consulate on similar lines.
BTW India IS the South Asia or just the Indian Subcontinent. West is anything west of Afghanistan and central asian border.
In any case, the developers never removed the core mechanics of civ when reworking an existing civ, because it was a lot of unnecessary work.
You let the Japanese lose the Spanish ally for no reason, while saying most similar to the current. The Chinese, on the other hand, have too many options, even including unplayable civs. Referring to the revolution in the Spanish, the UI only fits a maximum of 6 options.
Tibet was a Qing territory, not a tributary state.
For one civilization, you divide the Chinese into two dynasties, but for another civilization, you still classify them as Chinese. I don’t care what history this is for, but it’s inelegant design.
I would choose these if I have to design their Consulates (though I would rename their Consulates with Guest House).
Koreans: Chinese, Japanese, Russian, American, Korean isolation
Vietnamese: Chinese, Siamese, Dutch, French, Vietnamese isolation
Given that diplomacy with the West had fundamentally different values and ways of working than diplomacy with tributaries, and that it only makes sense for one existing civ and two potential civs, I wouldn’t consider making any major changes to the Consulates.
As for whether Indians abandon the Consulate, I don’t mind if there is another system using export based on Islamic culture with the release of Persians + Omanis DLC, but I don’t consider these very uncertain factors when thinking about Consulate changes.
Consulate ally
Japanese: Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Japanese Isolation, American
Chinese: British, French, Russian, Chinese Isolation, American
Indians: British, French, Portuguese, and 2 of Dutch, Persian, Ottoman
HC Cards (all with a cost)
Chinese:
- Red Coat Cannons (IV, infinite): Ships 2 Falconets operated by Chinese crews.
- General Cannons (IV, twice): Ships 2 Mortars operated by Chinese crews.
- Great General Cannons (IV): Ships 2 Heavy Cannons operated by Chinese crews.
- Recruit Korean mercenaries (III, infinite): Ships Korean mercenary units (hopefully musketeers).
- Korean Tribute (IV): Enables Korean mercenary units in mercenary buildings, and/or enables 2 types of unit of playable Korean civ with export cost in Castles.
- Recruit Vietnamese mercenaries (III, infinite): Ships Vietnamese mercenary units.
- Vietnamese Tribute (IV): Enables Vietnamese mercenary units in mercenary buildings, and/or enables 2 types of unit of playable Vietnamese civ with export cost in Castles.
Japanese:
- Import Culverins (IV, infinite): Ships 2 Culverins operated by Japanese crews.
- Korean Immigrants (III): Ship 5 villagers and 5 mercenary units from Korea.
I think a better solution would be to be able to send colonial troops that are already present in the game as Treasure Guards on African maps:
Colonial Gunslinger & Colonial Officer - British Colonial Army
Colonial Looter - German Colonial Army
Colonial Swashbuckler - French Colonial Army
With these 4 units (+ adding some other new ones for each Consulate option), you could create a Unique Units complication for the Consulate.
