Some thoughts regarding the consulate

[SchwarzeGarde49]

@ArrivedLeader22

You cannot play DE without the “og iroquous/sioux”.

Wrong. I have no civs in my game that are labelled “iroquous/sioux”. Literally removed. And I’m playing on DE.

If you hate that so much, I have no idea how you could happily play DE “without them”.

I don’t pick them as parts of my game. Same would happen if the chinese would suddenly lose their iconic elements because they’re “toxic stereotypes”, or something.

Because you said Asians should not get “normal” artillery while they did a lot in reality?

They shouldn’t get european arty as constructable arty. Consulate shipments are fine. Playing with quirky asian ones is fine and fun, too. None of those options are fictional. Where’s the necromancer?

[ArrivedLeader22]

@SchwarzeGarde49

I don’t pick them as parts of my game. Same would happen if the chinese would suddenly lose their iconic elements because they’re “toxic stereotypes”, or something.

Well let’s hope for the best so that in the future you’ll also need to dig off the random button because you cannot play most of civs.

@SchwarzeGarde49

Where’s the necromancer?

Here it is:

@SchwarzeGarde49

They shouldn’t get european arty as constructable arty.

Maybe also Song dynasty flamethrowers (a poor weapon even at its time) in the Qing dynasty?

[SchwarzeGarde49]

@ArrivedLeader22

Here it is:

I don’t see it, sry. What unit in the entire asian roaster of artillery is pure phantasy and should be replaced by an european model? What’s the necromancer of artillery?

to dig off the random button

I own all dlcs I’m interested to play. And I’m not falling for the " It includes all previous expansions from the original game" meme again. Fool me once…

[BjornViking20]

I think that step zero should be to make consulate units more accessible, like they are for Malta for example. Otherwise why spend so many resources in a mechanic that is barely used. The mechanic should be fixed in the first place.

If we get means to consistently train consulate units (maybe a 50% discount card like we have for technologies with Good Faith Agreements) then it might be worth adding on to that.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@SchwarzeGarde49

I don’t see it, sry. What unit in the entire asian roaster of artillery is pure phantasy and should be replaced by an european model? What’s the necromancer of artillery?

I think there is a word I’ve been using many times:

ONLY

Asians (esp Chinese and Indians. Japanese is ironically better researched) ONLY being able to build gimmicky artillery on their own, and ONLY being able to purchase the most standard form of artillery (they massive used irl) from the Europeans, slowly and in small numbers, bundled with a group of European men that rarely came to actually aid them in battle irl is fantasy.

In fact I never suggested removing them. But of course that mere thought gives you paranoia and you’re welcome.

The thread is not even about that. I even proposed keeping the consulate artillery thing but give them local crew. I prefer it represents the import and adoption of European styled artillery instead of purchasing them with European crew and a bundle of European soldiers.
Maybe also a few more ways to access more “normal” artillery units (and they are not European. Asians have their own innovations on the most standard and practical form of artillery ——tubes firing round shells), besides some fire spitting dragon carts or elephants with chains on their tooth.

Like the British were famous for employing rifle units. Because of legacy game design however they don’t have skirmishers.
I’m not saying they should have age 3 skirmishers by default or totally remove the longbowman. But something like the ranger’s implementation is definitely nice to have.

[ArrivedLeader22]

The first thing is: if you want to train ONE falconet, (bundled with other units) you’ll need to gather 800 export. And you just get one.

In the meantime other civs have started queueing the first falconet when they have ~300 export equivalent of resources. Then when you get that one falconet, they could have batch trained 2 or 3.

Then you have to wait for another 800 export to start queuing for the second one.

It is very difficult to supplant if you lost one.

[SchwarzeGarde49]

@ArrivedLeader22

I think there is a word I’ve been using many times:

ONLY

Which is a limitation of the medium, just like being able to train only 220 units, not ten thousands. It’s a reasonable limitation and not wc3-tier phantasy.

What gameplay problem would a local crew solve? None. Why would a consulate ship local units? We don’t know.

In the meantime other civs have started queueing the first falconet

Except you can equally start queuing mortars and mass like half a dozen by the time the enemy has two falcs. Relevant video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny6tJ063u2o

[UpmostRook9474]

@ArrivedLeader22

They can produce normal artillery from the palace with one simple tech (and you don’t have to purchase it bundled with several other units which raise the price and cause incontinuous productions).

This is exactly why I suggested the concept of Consulate Artillery mentioned above. (Have you read it?)

@ArrivedLeader22

While the Asians without the consulate options severely lack a lot of the basics. You even need to switch between options to get a normal functional civ. It’s rather forced.

I think the reason is that Asians already have many advantages over Africans. For example, Hand Mortars work in some ways as Culverins, and Flaming Arrows work in some ways as Falconets, so there is no need for all basic artillery to be purchased through special resources like Africans.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@UpmostRook9474

This is exactly why I suggested the concept of Consulate Artillery mentioned above. (Have you read it?)

Yes I think it’s a good idea.

@UpmostRook9474

I think the reason is that Asians already have many advantages over Africans. For example, Hand Mortars work in some ways as Culverins, and Flaming Arrows work in some ways as Falconets, so there is no need for all basic artillery to be purchased through special resources like Africans.

Yeah I don’t think the consulate artillery roster needs to be massively altered. Like Chinese have their own culverin so their consulate only grants anti-infantry artillery.
What needs to be improved is their accessibility and training.

[SchwarzeGarde49]

@UpmostRook9474

Consulate Artillery

That could be a good compromise, make it locked to the respective “isolation” branch. However idk if indian isolation would be meaningful for this period…

[ArrivedLeader22]

@SchwarzeGarde49

Which is a limitation of the medium, just like being able to train only 220 units, not ten thousands. It’s a reasonable limitation and not wc3-tier phantasy.

What gameplay problem would a local crew solve? None. Why would a consulate ship local units? We don’t know.

Look at the title and the first post.

This is mostly about reskinning. I intentionally avoided too many gameplay and mechanics changes (I even suggested giving Japan a new consulate musketeer option if the Dutch are to be adjusted) to fend off people like you but it never worked. Because there was one complaint and it definitely means overhauling the game once more!!!

I think the consulate would be better off representing the Asian civs adoption of western styled firearms into their local military, not only the artillery crew but also the units, instead of calling out a group of British soldiers and British crew to fight for them which rarely happened.

[UpmostRook9474]

@SchwarzeGarde49

However idk if indian isolation would be meaningful for this period…

I haven’t suggested Indian Isolation… I have only suggested Chinese Isolation.

[SchwarzeGarde49]

Then india is left as it is? Did they have no european-influenced artillery? From a gameplay perspective, india always seemed to me like the one civ that i missed having arty on (out of the asian ones)…

[UpmostRook9474]

@ArrivedLeader22

I think the consulate would be better off representing the Asian civs adoption of western styled firearms into their local military, not only the artillery crew but also the units, instead of calling out a group of British soldiers and British crew.

I can accept Consulate units (including artillery) being with Western crew and soldiers.
Artillery in African Palaces are also with Western crew.
Anyway, I have a simple explanation for it.

@UpmostRook9474

I can interpret it as based on friendly and close diplomatic relations, Emperor Kangxi and Emperor Akbar invited Britain to send troops to help him fight the enemy. As the same, Tokugawa invited Netherlands to send troops to help him fight the enemy.

I don’t think it’s a serious problem not to change it, but it’s a lot of work to change it.

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@SchwarzeGarde49

Then india is left as it is? Did they have no european-influenced artillery? From a gameplay perspective, india always seemed to me like the one civ that i missed having arty on (out of the asian ones)…

You obviously didn’t read my post carefully…

The concept of Consulate Artillery applies to all European allies, so it can serve every Asian civilization.

Chinese Isolation and Consulate Artillery are not the same thing. I want Chinese Isolation to replace the German ally, nothing to do with Consulate Artillery.

Indians did not have an obvious, well-known and far-reaching Isolation period like Chinese and Japanese in history. They can’t have anything like that, but with the related rework of Indians, they can add something new to the regular tech tree.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@UpmostRook9474

I don’t think it’s a serious problem not to change it, but it’s a lot of work to change it.

Fair enough I see the points on both sides. I’m okay if it is done either way.

It would be better if the Asian civs have a way of gaining some local “modern” units though. Could be from the consulate or through other means.

[UpmostRook9474]

@ArrivedLeader22

a way of gaining some local “modern” units though

You can see my thoughts on the Meiji Restoration. The New Army Regulars and New Army Riflemen out there can also serve the Chinese Ever Victorious Army card.

@UpmostRook9474

I would just introduced a modernized musketeer-like unit and a modernized skirmisher-like unit, maybe named New Army Regular and New Army Rifleman and having good stats at their lower price, for the Chinese and Japanese to make them be more the 19th century rather than staying in the 16th and 17th century.

Then, make Meiji Restoration cheaper and change it into a revolution-like effect, turning every Ashigaru Musketeer into Guard New Army Regular, Yumi into Guard New Army Rifleman, samurai into 1 Guard New Army Regular and 1 Guard New Army Rifleman, Naginata Rider into Guard Hussar, and Yabusame into Guard Dragoon. Also, the Guard New Army Regular and Guard New Army Rifleman become available at the barrack for the Japanese.

@UpmostRook9474

Introduce New Army Regular, New Army Rifleman and New Army General as representatives of Asian modernization.

After the Japanese studied the Meiji Restoration:

• Every Daimyo and Shogun will transform into a New Army General.
• Each Ashigaru will be turned into 1 New Army Regulars.
• Each Samurai will be turned into 2 New Army Regulars.
• Each Yumi will be turned into a New Army Rifleman.
• Every Naginata will be turned into Hussar.
• Every Yabusame will be turned into Dragoon.
• Each Flaming Arrow will be turned into a Falconet with 80% HP.
• Each Morutaru will be turned into a Mortar with 80% HP.
• Consulates will automatically and immediately End Isolation, and Isolationism will no longer be available.
• In Barracks, enable New Army Regular and New Army Rifleman, and disable Ashigaru, Samurai and Yumi.
• In Stables, enable Hussar and Dragoon, and disable Naginata and Yabusame.
• In Castles, enable Falconet, Culverin and Mortar, and disable Flaming Arrow and Morutaru.
• In Shogunate, enable the retraining of New Army General, and disable the retraining of Daimyo and Shogun.
• The New Army General will provide the abilities of Daimyo.
• Cards in the deck are changed to ship the turned units.

By the way, the Ever Victorious Army card should be provide 15 New Army Regulars and 15 New Army Riflemen for the Chinese instead.

More thoughts related to the concept of Banner Army.

@UpmostRook9474

• Special Banner Armies
  After redesign, there are 8 special banner army cards.
  Mandarin Duck Squad: 4 Langxian Spearmen + 8 Qiang Spearmen
  Divine Machine Battalion: 8 Three-Eyed Gunners + 2 Flamethrowers
  Green Standard Army: 10 Chu Ko Nu + 6 Jingals
  Iron Cap Princes’ Army: 5 Iron Flails + 3 Manchus
  Chahar Army: 15 Steppe Riders + 15 Keshiks
  Emperor’s Army: 22 Arquebusiers + 8 Hand Mortars
  Yong Ying: 8 Meteor Hammers + 14 Changdao Swordsmen
  Ever Victorious Army: 15 New Army Regulars + 15 New Army Riflemen

Once these cards are shipped, their banner armies can be enabled at the Summer Palace (or the alternate non-wonder building, like Frontier Fortified Town). Of course, these special banner armies take longer than regular banner armies because there are more units, but the time required per unit is slightly shorter than regular banner armies.

[GwentMaster2163]

I still want to add again that I think the poster made a very good suggestion that I hadn’t thought of.

I have a little understanding of the history of military equipment in the Ming and Qing Dynasties in China. In the early Ming Dynasty, China did fully develop the old black powder weapons since the Song Dynasty, such as alot of rocket weapons and Hand cannon. With the introduction of cannon weapons, These backward things were gradually eliminated in China with the introduction of cannon weapons, but they were still used for a long time in ###### states of the Ming and Qing Dynasty.

But after the mid-Ming Dynasty, China began to purchase and imitate European armaments in large quantities, especially the Franco cannon（佛朗機炮） and Hongyi cannon（紅夷大炮）, which were the absolute main force on the battlefield. In the early Qing Dynasty, the empire also hired Jesuit missionaries to imitate artillery（神威無敵大將軍炮） with advanced European artillery technology and put it into the battlefield against Russia and Junggar. These types of artillery may be reflected in the consulate. It can be similar to Ottoman artillery or Indian rockets, replacing the gunners of the country on the basis of the original artillery.

In the mid-Ming Dynasty (Jiajing period), China also began to purchase and imitate a new type of musket made by the Portuguese, and named it “Bird Gun” (鳥銃，a musket with high accuracy that can kill flying birds). At the same time, they also bought and imitated the muskets of the Turks, and called them “Rumi guns” (meaning muskets from Rome), all of which were arquebus guns. At the end of the Qing Dynasty and during the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom period, Britain and France also trained Chinese in China as “常勝軍” and “常捷軍”. The “團練” of local Chinese armies, such as the Hunan Army and the Huai Army (1860s), was trained with Western equipment and Western military personnel, and it may also be reflected in the consulate.

The above are just some rough ideas.

[M00Z1LLA]

@UpmostRook9474

Chinese Isolation and Consulate Artillery are not the same thing. I want Chinese Isolation to replace the German ally, nothing to do with Consulate Artillery.

Indians did not have an obvious, well-known and far-reaching Isolation period like Chinese and Japanese in history

“Chinese isolation” is just as silly as Indian isolation. Chinese trade restrictions were nowhere near the same degree as Japan. They still traded extensively, they just restricted the Europeans to trading in bullion because they thought of them as inferior barbarians. You can’t seriously claim the country at the center of the tributary system was isolationist.

I understand the desire to include some more cool Chinese units but “Chinese isolation” makes no sense as a way to include them. Units like the Three-Eyes Gunner should definitely be included, but it would be better as a standard unit. If the Chinese consulate were ever reworked, it should be made to represent the tributary system, not some fictional isolationism.

[UpmostRook9474]

@M00Z1LLA

“Chinese isolation” is just as silly as Indian isolation. Chinese trade restrictions were nowhere near the same degree as Japan.

God, are you teaching me Chinese history?

The Isolation here represents the Qing Dynasty’s extreme conservatism and even xenophobia in its diplomacy against the West. Because China had always refused to recognize the equal relationship between other countries and China, formal diplomatic institutions were not established until 1861. Before the 19th century, they only appreciated their own culture, continued to use their own ancient technology and equipment, despised the people from the West and their culture, and ignored the knowledge and technology displayed by the Westerners, resulting in a serious lag behind the West.

They thought that Westerners were thirsty for China’s wealthness and power, or in other words, thirsty for the rewards of the Chinese emperor, and they didn’t think that this was a modern civilized trade relationship, which made them not interested in any Western goods at all. Such a large and prolonged trade deficit had kept the British dissatisfied. In contrast, the Mughal authorities agreed to the establishment of trading settlements by Europeans, including the British, opening trade and exchanges to the West, and because of political disunity in the subcontinent, frequent wars made the power of the West more and more important.

The attitude of the Qing Dynasty towards the West is a major focus when our people studied that period of history in school. Yes, they didn’t completely ban Westerners from entering China, but also they didn’t start real cooperation with Westerners, they didn’t try to understand the West, and they didn’t accept almost any Western things. Similar to Japan, in 1757, an imperial order started the policy of self-isolation of China from others, especially Western European countries. Trade was only possible at the designated port (Guangzhou), and no Westerner, whether merchant or missionary, could leave the port city. It can also be seen from many incidents that their rejection, hatred and violence towards Westerners was even more than that of the Japanese towards Westerners. All of these fit the way Isolation is presented in the game.

@M00Z1LLA

If the Chinese consulate were ever reworked, it should be made to represent the tributary system, not some fictional isolationism.

Qing isolationism is not fiction, it’s just not as famous and thorough as Japan.

The tributary system is difficult to implement in the game, as it will almost only serve the Chinese civ, and ignores the fact that in the timeline, China’s influence over the tributary states was getting weaker and weaker due to the power of Westerners and Japanese, the worldview of all other nations as tributaries began to unravel. The truth is that the influence of Westerners on Qing history was far greater than that of the tributary states.

I don’t mind seeing tributary states in the Chinese civ, but the best way to do this is to make it like a set of tribal support cards of the Native American civs. They could ship units of at least Korea and Vietnam, the two of the most important tributaries, from the home city.

[AnaWinters]

@UpmostRook9474

I don’t think it’s a serious problem not to change it, but it’s a lot of work to change it.

Considering they just rehauled the European units for no reason other than “We wanted to,” this is a poor argument. The Devs have shown they have the time and resources to overhaul entire classes of units (on a visual level) without evening needing an accompanying DLC to justify it.

Personally, I think it’d be a lot cooler if the European consulate units were Asian versions of those units with new weaponry rather than direct units from those countries.

Ship in Falconets and Redcoats? You get Asian units wielding British weapons and an Asian crew manning a falconet. Mortar? Asian crew. Grenadiers? Asian units throwing French grenades.

(Non-artillery are more questionable, but if the crews of the artillery units are being changed, it’d be bizarre not to chance the infantry and cavalry units to match.)