Some thoughts regarding the consulate

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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I have a lot of complaints with the consulate: It is the only way Asian civs can get “normal” artillery. It makes each consulate unit a separate unit on its own (even if they are the same type like the many musketeers or hussars. Why?). Many of the options are odd or out-of-place.

Like many TAD designs it’s in a weird spot. DE new civs as well as the reworked Europeans are much more gimmicky but these are well researched. Consulates are the opposite. I think at least some of the consulate options can be reskinned to be more historically relevant.

I consider the US and Mexican legions as a similar concept done better: these either have a historical basis (Pulaski, Kovat, etc.), or are generic units that US and Mexicans also had but cannot fit into their barracks/stables (dragoons, cuirassiers, etc.)

In fact Asian civs (they are also different each on their own, but let’s talk about common stuff here) didn’t always directly hire “foreign” soldiers like janissaries or redcoats. On the contrary, they imported European/Middle Eastern firearms and also tried to manufacture similar models. The consulate could make more sense if it represents that aspect by enabling Western-styled “local” units, instead of always granting the exact Western unit (in some rare cases they did hire Western mercenaries so these should be kept).

Artillery units can remain as they are because they represent the artillery type in general and they were indeed used by the Asians as well, but the gunners could have a civ-specific look.

For example, British ally can grant the ever victorious army to the Chinese (Ever Victorious Army - Wikipedia), and the EIC sepoy (the regular sepoy could be given a more fitting name like the bandukchi) to the Indians. They can still have the same stats as before.

In reality the Dutch would not give the Blue Guard musketeer to the Japanese (they cannot even amass the unit themselves). The Dutch ally should give a different unit type. Maybe a Japanese version of arquebusier (as skirmisher).

But then the Japanese do not have consulate musketeers (maybe they don’t need it in the first place). They could get a US ally as a consulate option. US had much influence on mid 19th century Asia and was a major factor of Japan’s end of isolation. It could grant boshin war-style modern infantry as the consulate musketeer, named hohei or kohei or whatever one finds fit. Spain didn’t have much influence on Japan back then. So some of its effects could be scrapped for the US ally.

We could also extend our vision beyond European or “Western” civs. TAD tried to force every European civ into the consulate but some does not really make sense, like Germans for Chinese (sending doppelsoldners) or Ottomans for Indians (sending janissaries). These could be replaced with more fitting options. The African civs’ allies never tried to be exhaustive and it’s fine. For example if the Chinese needs a melee infantry-focused consulate ally…just use Japan.

These are really fragmented thoughts. I don’t have the time nor the sufficient knowledge to come up with a full roster right now. I’d be very grateful if people can share some of their ideas.

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A complaint I hear often about India is that they should have their own artillery selection, and that the Siegephant is not nearly enough.
I could get behind this. Let the Siegephant own its role as a highly mobile, durable field cannon. Shorten its range, make it useful into troops, and let it focus on one specific thing to be good at. Then give India some more artillery of its own to fulfil other roles.

And don’t make a bunch of 1:1 European: Asian artillery units, either. Be creative. The Asians made their artillery in their own way - they may have copied some European cannons, but they made their own, as well.

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Well yea asian civs were broken from the start and consulates were meant to the a fill-the-gap sort of thing but it didn’t work African civs did the whole alliance thing better. As it is African civs can get armories, churches (which grant train speed upgrades and spies), standard artillery and heavy artillery.

If consulate alliances were to be changed to something like alliances for african civs or like a native settlement. Export can be treated like a resource only for researches and things like armories and churches (so if they’re destroyed you can rebuild them) or an artillery foundry. But standard infantry/cavalry units should cost food/coin/wood and to balance it out they could be capped. Export could also be spent to “unlock” the units at the consulate just as you need to unlock artillery at a palace.

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I totally agree. Whether it was Japan during the Warring States Period or the Meiji Restoration, or China in the Ming Dynasty or Qing Dynasty, they all purchased European weapons to equip their troops, and even hired European experts to train them.
Instead of directly hiring the British army, the French army, the Portuguese army, and the Dutch army to fight for themselves.

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I have shared many ideas for the consulate before.

If this mean to make the skins of consulate artillery be like Mysorean Rockets that be operated by locals, it is fine.

The problem is that allies don’t offer different things for different Asian civilizations. And the names of their units are those units’ Royal Guard names. I respect the game’s design in that regard. I can interpret it as based on friendly and close diplomatic relations, Emperor Kangxi and Emperor Akbar invited Britain to send troops to help him fight the enemy. As the same, Tokugawa invited Netherlands to send troops to help him fight the enemy.

Now the Dutch can train them. Just saying.

Why not reserve the Dutch and add the US?

Chinese Isolation would be a good option to replace the German ally.
China Isolation makes sense to lower the cost of banner armies and provide many new Chinese units.

The units there may be like:

  • Three-Eyed Gunner
    A new ranged heavy infantry with a three-eyed gun, firing in bursts of three shots like Chu Ko Nu. Has shorter range than Musketeer and better HP than Arquebusier. Trainable in groups of 5 at Consulate from Age II.
  • Langxian Spearman
    A new hand heavy infantry with a langxian spear. Has low speed, and quite good attack multipliers against cavalry and heavy infantry. Trainable in groups of 3 at Consulate from Age II.
  • Glaive Cavalry
    A new heavy cavalry with a classic Chinese glaive polearm like guandao. Very tanky with decent melee attack, but slow. Trainable at Consulate from Age III.
  • Manchu
    No longer a mercenary. A bit weaker than the original one but still powerful. Trainable at Consulate from Age III.
  • Jingal
    A new ranged infantry with a type of large matchlock gun carried by two soldiers, having a higher attack and longer range than Arquebusier, pretty good against heavy infantry and buildings. Trainable at Consulate from Age III. (The place of button is same as Consulate Artillery and Meiji Restoration, since it’s somehow similar to abus gunners but more like an artillery).

In fact, the units of Japanese Isolation and Chinese Isolation should be regarded as their unique consulate units without regular versions, rather than the consulate version of an existing regular unit. Even if it’s the consulate version of a regular unit, it shouldn’t be a mercenary. For example, Hatamoto is supposed to be either a brand new samurai-type unit with consulate unit status, or the consulate version of the regular samurai, but not the consulate version of the ronin mercenaries.

As for the Ottoman allies of the Indians, it would be more accurate if they could be replaced by the Persian allies in the future.

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Completely ahistorically, would it be interesting to introduce some entirely fictional things, like the Asian civs being able to Consulate Ally with Native or African civs as well?

Just a thought. Would be funny to see the Japanese come in with some Warpath Badgers, or have China beef up their front line with Skull Knights or Macemen.

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Should Swedes be the ally for Ethiopians age advances? Hausa stuff as Mexican fedal cards?
Won’t you allow to have a samurai shipments as a “Japan Support” card for Lakota between Sans Arc Support, Burnt Thigh Support, Oglala Support, etc.

When you use the Asian civs in the American maps and ally with the natives, you can see something like this.

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Why should asians get “normal” (european) artillery anyway? I think the quirky asian ones are fun, too. Maybe they deserve some adjustments and numbers tweeks, maybe a nest of bees/ hwacha addition would work, by allying with korea?

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Because this is a historical game, not a fantasy game, if you like fantasy, then I recommend you to play Warcraft series or c&c series.

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Citation needed. Last time i checked, the entire campaign was made up.

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And I can probably guess what kind of response you’re going to see, because I’ve done it too many times, how you respond to people whose views differ from yours. Suppose your response is Age of Empires III, not a historical game, or if it is a fantasy game, I don’t think you need to respond, because you can’t persuade me, and I won’t change your point of view. And because in order to avoid further related quarrels, I have already limited you, so I can’t see anything you reply.
What I like is the A sense of history in historical games, not going around arguing with other people like some boring people

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Some people just live with such a paranoia that some other people posting on the forum would immediately lead to the utter overhaul of “the game they are familiar with” (which ironically has sat there for 15 years without being touched once).

Man how I wish I were that influential. If that’s the case I I do not need to post here in the first place at all. I’ll directly talk to the managers.

Idk what you guys’ definition of “nostalgia” is like. When I was a kid playing AOE3 I thought about how glorious it would be if the game makes full use of its potentials and portrays units and techs based on real historical events and carefully crafted unique models.
I waited for 15 years for that to realize. That’s my nostalgia. Now you guys don’t even need to wait. Your familiar nostalgic perfectly balanced simple competitive game with “cool stereotypes” have been already sitting there intact for 15 years. I don’t know what you guys are upset about.

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Just to clarify I’m not talking about replacing Dutch with US.
The Dutch consulate giving musketeers does not fit the historical background or the in-game Dutch civ. I’m thinking of repurposing the option.
US needs to be added as well.

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You have nothing to say, but are eager to comment anyway? Interesting, albeit only mildly.

Whatever

Pen Huo Qi - chinese medieval flamethrower

The first Chinese hand mortar used specifically for firing iron-cased bombs was found in 1413.

Two variations on this avian theme have been recorded in the history of Chinese siege warfare, the “flying crow (shen huo fei ya) with magic fire,” a larger model with four-rocket propulsion, and the “spiritual flying duck,” a smaller model using only two rockets.

Japanese daimyo, Tokugawa Ieyasu, had a keen interest in building more advanced artillery for his armies. He leveraged his connections with English and Dutch traders to import a variety of European model cannons. It is believed that he utilized these weapons, as well as the flaming arrow, in sieges during the famous Sekigahara campaign of 1600 that eventually led to the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

However, in 1639 the Japanese played host to visiting Dutch advisors who demonstrated a mortar for the Shogun and his representatives. The demonstration caused an uproar even though not one shell fired hit its intended target.

In what universe those obviously history-themed weapons are comparable to high phantasy including orcs or night elves i do not know. They’re historical enough to me, and obviously to the devs aswell.

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This doesn’t need to be that crazy. This could be achieved though the existing consulate picks. For example, allying with the brits would allow you to ask for cherokees.

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A

Since the compendium of the game is your only source of history, why don’t you paste the immediate preceding paragraph?

“Unfortunately, use of the mortar, a military art that the Koreans had perfected, was something in which the Japanese did not appear interested. They continued their usual practice of importing European cannons. “

And I remember you DON’T CARE?

MEDIEVAL

And beyond these there were far more numerous, practical and effective firearms used by the Asians just like the ones used by the Europeans. They even mass produced their own models.

IMG_0265

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For the Japanese:

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They just look like normal artillery pieces.

They don’t fit your image of “other cultures” preferring oddly shaped exotic weapons with totems and performing strange rituals when using them. They, surprise, prefer practical weapons just like the Europeans. Sorry for overthrowing your long established world view but our understanding of history evolves regardless of your personal feelings.

Why sticking to weird exotic gimmicky toys with few records of effective usage in their own source?

This is also history. A WW2 game should give the British a longbowman as the only infantry:

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Not bad to change the blue guard. If we need another ally to provide Musketeers in Age II, it would historically be the Portuguese. It was the Portuguese who first introduced Western style firearms to the Japanese, and the Portuguese musketeers have the royal guard upgrade.

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Those were cannon fires.

Surprise surprise that’s actually following an European design.

And they fire cannonballs.

I think the mere existence of what you said here is sufficient for everyone to find out how ignorant you are. But I still take the time to correct you.

Admitting ignorance isn’t the end of the world. I do it all the time. It must be very hard for someone that is never wrong, but the world will treat you like that neglecting your feelings.

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Well, actually they are cannons.

I want to keep the Flamethrower because it serves the entertainment of the game. But we can indeed follow the way Mysorean Rockets work to provide the Chinese with locals-operated Heavy Cannons and Falconets (or Culverin) with cards.

Seriously? Censor a picture? Even the picture is just capturing a part of the painting he uploading?

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