Spanish Dogs 2.0: Once again, about how to make Spain be Spain, and not Britain with falconets

[WolfishICE]

MORE SPANISH DOGS

The game has cards that upgrade explorers. Nobody uses them, so I’m noting their presence for readers. The problem is that a card that upgrades a single unit is inferior to upgrading an entire tag, like “Heavy Infantry.” Spain has unique upgrades for its explorer, as well as a card for upgrading its team’s explorers, meaning the civilization’s uniqueness is represented by an irrelevant function.
The first thing I’d like to improve here is explorers for all civilizations, increasing their base damage by 100% (and before the nerds start whining about killing treasure guards too quickly, explorers have a % multiplier that can be adjusted by pressing two keys on the keyboard). They already have plenty of HP upgrades. This will increase the cost-effectiveness of all explorer cards in the game. Specifically, for Spain, the explorer upgrade card will increase the dog limit by 5. People have argued a lot about Spain’s dogs being too overpowered or too useless. The inability to use dogs to raid villagers and attack buildings makes dogs a support unit rather than a full-fledged game unit, so I consider all claims about them being overpowered to be propaganda. It’s a unique mechanic that creates the identity of a civilization. Only two civilizations have dogs in this game, and I think it’s worth maximizing this ability. For balance, I added the dog usage buff specifically to the card so it would be a specific archaic combat build, not just any Spanish build. Fans of “Britishly Spain” with musketeers and falconets won’t notice the difference at all.

---

CROSSBOWMAN

In the original version of the game, Spanish crossbowmen were uniquely strong among all crossbowmen of other civilizations, but after the release of KoM, the developers realized the problem and Italy and Malta’s crossbowmen were brought up to a working state, while Spainish crossbowmen remained at 50% of the required efficiency. To avoid copying KoM, I suggest using all Spanish bonuses. All three Archaic Combat upgrades + Corselet apply to Spanish crossbowmen. This will be Spanish, this will be different.

---

RODELERO EASTER EGG

A very expensive, slow-to-build unit, with damage like a pikeman, and no ability to destroy buildings. Its only advantage, a fast sprint, is negated by a corselet. This is an example of extremely poor design. I know that historically this unit was really bad, but I wouldn’t want to use it solely as a historical Easter egg.
You need to choose one from the list:

• it can’t destroy buildings
• it’s expensive and takes a long time to build
• it has low dps
• team Hidalgos doesn’t work on it

Not all at once.
If you approach the problem creatively, without changing the unit’s base state, you could add a charged pistol attack like the Hospitaller/Highwayman, linking it to the Archaic Combat card, but that would be repetitive.
You could also add a damage bonus for Rodelero to the Team Destreza card, but I’m not sure how good an idea it is with hybrids like that.
The unit itself is so bad that I don’t really have any ideas on how to make it work in a way that’s both unique and effective. Maybe people have better suggestions than mine.

---

TERCIO

This unit does the same thing as the Rodelero, except it’s cheaper, builds instantly, can destroy buildings, and has 10% protection from ranged damage. In other words, it’s superior in every way. The only thing that really bothers me is the Spanish Square upgrade, which is in Age 4. It should be in Age 3 or 2, but definitely not Age 4. And it would be nice to somehow increase its damage even more. I know about Unction, but more is needed for this strategy to actually work in combat, and not just for rat attacks on factories.

---

SPY

A unit that frankly failed in the game in no way at all.
Currently, it costs 110 gold, while its stats justify its 45 gold price. Even at that price, I’d question its cost effectiveness. Other civilizations might simply ignore it, but Spain has troop boosting cards that target it. This means Spanish spies are the strongest in the game, but Spain still can’t take advantage of its unique technology. As you’ve probably already figured out, I really don’t like garbage mechanics in the game.
First, its multipliers. It specializes in killing explorers, which is completely useless, and killing mercenaries. So, great, so we have an anti-mercenary unit, right? NO. It loses in cost effectiveness against the Highlander, Harkebusier, and Gatling Camel. So, it has no role in this game. Its stealth was heavily nerfed for no reason. What’s the point of stealth if it can’t raid villagers or destroy buildings, given that its damage output is lower than that of a pikeman. He’ll lose a 1v1 fight with a villager.
I propose the following: All spies are reworked for all civilizations. Let’s give them at least some chance to multitask with civilizations that have bonuses for this unit. They cost 100 gold, have 20% melee and range armor, and have a base damage of 10. Perhaps then we’ll finally see Spain in the game, rather than Britain with a different flag.
(By the way, this also applies to the native scout)

---

ECONOMY

Now comes the most interesting part. We have archaic combat, but we don’t have a wood to make this archaic combat. Italy and Malta receive an inexhaustible supply of wood to fuel their crossbow builds, starting early and increasing in the late game. Spain receives nothing. It functions like Russia, where your cards buff all units at once and allow you to juggle them. However, Spain bonuses are focused only on melee combat for infantry and cavalry, and separately. If you get a combat fullhouse, you lose your economic cards.
What can be fixed here? To encourage the Spanish player to play through the explorer, you can add a unique ability for the Spanish explorer, which allows him to receive gold for a kill equal to the amount of experience given for the killed unit. This is an early game.
For the late game, I suggest the progressive Spanish Gold card. Starting at 250, each shipment increases your gold supply by 10. This card also changes the cost of wood for the tercio and crossbowmen to gold. I don’t know about you, but I think I’ve found a good solution.

---

CAVALRY

The only criticism I can make is that the Lancer requires a separate upgrade and is very poor at killing artillery. For example, mass-produced Lancers performed very poorly against mass-produced Gatlings in my experience. But I think Spain’s cavalry is excellent. It works as it should.

[zeppelino24]

Indeed, Spain should be redesigned in certain respects—for example: unique skirmishers; a new Guard upgrade line for Rodeleros called “Grimista”; and new cards to boost Rodeleros. The “Tercio Tactics” card should enable a charged musket or pistol attack for Tercios, similar to the Papal Guard’s ability; this would certainly make the card more popular among players. There should also be a new Guard upgrade skin for Lancero; the current Spanish “Garrochista” representation is flawed, leaving Lancero stuck in the 15th century when they ought to have 19th-century attire, given that the Garrochistas of Jerez fought against the French army during the early 19th-century invasion of Spain. Such changes would provide a better representation of the Spanish in the game, moving away from stereotypes that keep them stagnating in the 15th century.

[Ekdal1378]

@WolfishICE

, great, so we have an anti-mercenary unit, right? NO. It loses in cost effectiveness against the Highlander, Harkebusier, and Gatling Camel. So, it has no role in this game.

The issue is Imperial Mercenaries, specially the ones trained on standard buildings; not european spies at all.

[WolfishICE]

Regardless of mercenaries and their strength, spies are a dead unit in the game. And when discussing Spain, this is the most important point. This is the unit Spain was originally intended to use, but it simply doesn’t work.

[Kingfisher1787]

Going to start by saying the difficult thing is Spain is very good in 1v1 and treaty and pretty bad in team. This is a kinda weird situation to balance around.

@WolfishICE

A very expensive, slow-to-build unit, with damage like a pikeman, and no ability to destroy buildings. Its only advantage, a fast sprint, is negated by a corselet. This is an example of extremely poor design. I know that historically this unit was really bad, but I wouldn’t want to use it solely as a historical Easter egg.

Melee units don’t take advantage of lancaster’s square law, which in RTS games basically means ranged units scale much better in higher numbers. This is influenced by a number of things but ability to engage more easily is very significant. Given that fact, melee units underperform in large battles. The tricky thing is Rods are actually very good in 1v1 due to their speed, snare, and how well they pair with skirms and lancers.

Spain has a lot of tempo as well. You receive shipments a lot faster, and dogs are really cheap and shadow tech. They basically end up being like 0.5-0.66 of an age 2 hussar for like 85f in age 3. You also get to train them with your army as you push.

@WolfishICE

The first thing I’d like to improve here is explorers for all civilizations, increasing their base damage by 100% (and before the nerds start whining about killing treasure guards too quickly, explorers have a % multiplier that can be adjusted by pressing two keys on the keyboard). They already have plenty of HP upgrades. This will increase the cost-effectiveness of all explorer cards in the game.

Messing around with explorer’s base stats is probably a bad idea. If anything I could see increasing the card percentage to like +100% damage instead of +50%.

@WolfishICE

People have argued a lot about Spain’s dogs being too overpowered or too useless. The inability to use dogs to raid villagers and attack buildings makes dogs a support unit rather than a full-fledged game unit, so I consider all claims about them being overpowered to be propaganda.

Their dogs are very strong in 1v1. Ask anyone who’s really good in 1v1. They might agree the card to upgrade them isn’t worth it, but the idea that dogs are strong is “propaganda” is ridiculous. Though to be fair in team they will fall off again being a melee unit.

@WolfishICE

For balance, I added the dog usage buff specifically to the card so it would be a specific archaic combat build, not just any Spanish build. Fans of “Britishly Spain” with musketeers and falconets won’t notice the difference at all.

In 1v1 whether you use lancer/skirm/rod, skirm/rod, musk/falc or bow/pike you use dogs. Which unit comp you use tends to be based on the MU.

[Soaring_Crow]

@WolfishICE

CROSSBOWMAN

In the original version of the game, Spanish crossbowmen were uniquely strong among all crossbowmen of other civilizations, but after the release of KoM, the developers realized the problem and Italy and Malta’s crossbowmen were brought up to a working state, while Spainish crossbowmen remained at 50% of the required efficiency. To avoid copying KoM, I suggest using all Spanish bonuses. All three Archaic Combat upgrades + Corselet apply to Spanish crossbowmen. This will be Spanish, this will be different.

Hmm Spanish Crossbowmen are probably the 3rd-strongest crossbowmen in the game after Maltese Arbalesters and Italian Pavisiers thanks to archaic combat cards and TEAM Hildalgos making them train stupidly quick. We’ll see how strong the Danish and Polish Crossbowmen can get. Applying the Corselet buff would help but I also thought maybe adding the Steel Bolts card would strengthen them enough, so they directly compete with skirmishers. More civs with crossbowmen units should get Steel Bolts actually. Let me use archaic infantry into the late game.

@WolfishICE

ECONOMY

Now comes the most interesting part. We have archaic combat, but we don’t have a wood to make this archaic combat. Italy and Malta receive an inexhaustible supply of wood to fuel their crossbow builds, starting early and increasing in the late game. Spain receives nothing. It functions like Russia, where your cards buff all units at once and allow you to juggle them. However, Spain bonuses are focused only on melee combat for infantry and cavalry, and separately. If you get a combat fullhouse, you lose your economic cards.
What can be fixed here? To encourage the Spanish player to play through the explorer, you can add a unique ability for the Spanish explorer, which allows him to receive gold for a kill equal to the amount of experience given for the killed unit. This is an early game.
For the late game, I suggest the progressive Spanish Gold card. Starting at 250, each shipment increases your gold supply by 10. This card also changes the cost of wood for the tercio and crossbowmen to gold. I don’t know about you, but I think I’ve found a good solution.

This isn’t a very original solution, but we can copy Russia’s Cords of 1000 Wood infinite card and give it to the Spanish for those that want to stock up on wood for more crossbowmen/pikemen mayhem in the late game.

@WolfishICE

RODELERO EASTER EGG

A very expensive, slow-to-build unit, with damage like a pikeman, and no ability to destroy buildings. Its only advantage, a fast sprint, is negated by a corselet. This is an example of extremely poor design. I know that historically this unit was really bad, but I wouldn’t want to use it solely as a historical Easter egg.
You need to choose one from the list:

• it can’t destroy buildings
• it’s expensive and takes a long time to build
• it has low dps
• it receives fewer bonuses from the three Archaic Combat cards
• team Hidalgos doesn’t work on it

Rodeleros are very specialized anti-cavalry melee units, but they are too fragile. They could use an HP buff to make up for their more expensive costs compared to Tercio Pikemen.

[Skadidesu]

Rodelero are kind of a relic from being added to the game before TWC. All other comparable units are Shock Infantry but they are not.

My suggestion is to turn them into Shock Infantry and potentially even remove Hussars from Spanish. Then they would have a purpose that is clearly distinct from the Pikeman and also distinct from the Lancer.

[WolfishICE]

@Kingfisher1787

Going to start by saying the difficult thing is Spain is very good in 1v1 and treaty and pretty bad in team. This is a kinda weird situation to balance around.

Spain is very bad in Treati due to its weak late-game economy. So I disagree with your assessment. I’ve played Spain very rarely in 1v1s, and I didn’t find it particularly strong. Tempo only gives an advantage in rushes, but rushes aren’t a guaranteed victory. It’s more a matter of luck.

@Kingfisher1787

Melee units don’t take advantage of lancaster’s square law, which in RTS games basically means ranged units scale much better in higher numbers. This is influenced by a number of things but ability to engage more easily is very significant. Given that fact, melee units underperform in large battles. The tricky thing is Rods are actually very good in 1v1 due to their speed, snare, and how well they pair with skirms and lancers.

I completely agree that the game’s basic design is flawed. To make the game age as it is, ranged units should have a reload speed of 6.0 instead of the current 3.0, but I’m not counting on such changes because they’re too sweeping.

Also, I think Lancaster’s Law works the same in 1v1 as it does in 3v3.
And you haven’t convinced me that the Rodelero occupies the same niche as the Tercio, but is inferior in every way. This unit needs to be redesigned to perform a specific function better. Either it should be better at fighting enemy melee infantry, or it should perform better against massed ranged units.

@Kingfisher1787

Messing around with explorer’s base stats is probably a bad idea. If anything I could see increasing the card percentage to like +100% damage instead of +50%.

Okay, you’ve convinced me that this will be a more conservative solution, but to make it relevant, the Conquistador and Team Destreza cards should collectively provide 175% bonus damage and HP.

@Kingfisher1787

Their dogs are very strong in 1v1. Ask anyone who’s really good in 1v1. They might agree the card to upgrade them isn’t worth it, but the idea that dogs are strong is “propaganda” is ridiculous. Though to be fair in team they will fall off again being a melee unit.

If they’re only strong in fights between 20 units, they’re not a strong unit. If they’re strong in larger fights, then they should work in 3v3. But I already criticized that in the Lancaster Law section. Currently, their job is to absorb ranged damage or to cause problems for enemies using melee units. They’re definitely not a strong unit. I’ll remind you again that they can’t kill settlers or damage TC\Factories. My goal was to increase Spain’s uniqueness by simultaneously increasing the number of dogs and the explorer’s strength. However, early in the game, spending 850 food on a unit that can only kill some soldiers and nothing else would be a terrible investment.

@Kingfisher1787

In 1v1 whether you use lancer/skirm/rod, skirm/rod, musk/falc or bow/pike you use dogs. Which unit comp you use tends to be based on the MU.

The dog count bonus is tied to the dead card. The original Spain you’re talking about won’t be affected in this particular case.

---

@Soaring_Crow

Steel Bolts card would strengthen them enough, so they directly compete with skirmishers

I’d like to avoid adding this card to anyone with the Imperial upgrades for Anarchic Archers. Spain is a melee civilization. Their crossbowmen aren’t skirmishers, they’re support units for melee fighters. And I’d like to keep it the way the developers originally intended. Yes, they’ll have poor attack range and multipliers, but they’ll have almost as much HP and very high damage. It’s perfectly adequate for their role.

@Soaring_Crow

This isn’t a very original solution, but we can copy Russia’s Cords of 1000 Wood infinite card and give it to the Spanish for those that want to stock up on wood for more crossbowmen/pikemen mayhem in the late game.

This will work, but players are unlikely to want to lose the unique Spanish resource perk for Age 1 deliveries. It would be better to shift the economy to gold.

@Soaring_Crow

Rodeleros are very specialized anti-cavalry melee units, but they are too fragile. They could use an HP buff to make up for their more expensive costs compared to Tercio Pikemen.

And damage too, and siege damage. But then they’ll just become halberdiers. I would like to find some unique solution for a unique unit.

---

@Skadidesu

My suggestion is to turn them into Shock Infantry and potentially even remove Hussars from Spanish. Then they would have a purpose that is clearly distinct from the Pikeman and also distinct from the Lancer.

It’s a viable option, but then they’ll lose their main advantage, which I found in them: countering shock infantry. Because halberdiers, pikemen, and musketeers are very weak against Eagle Warriors and similar units. Maybe there will be a way to avoid this somehow.

---

Taking this opportunity, I would like to add:

Spanish

• Civilization Bonus: Shipment rate slightly decreased from -26% to -25%. (That’s right, let’s erase the differences between civilizations. This hasn’t changed anything fundamentally, just a step toward mirror imagery. On the other hand, my proposal is now even more relevant.)
• Reconquista (II): Now also enables Conquistadors in the Embassy, which cost 2 population slots. (Why wasn’t this done right away?)
• Tercio (IV): Now researches in 15s instead of 20s. (What is Tercio IV?)

[Ekdal1378]

Dogs arent useless, their main purpouse is taking treasures, so Spain has acces to early resources.

After, they are a complement other civs dont have.

If you want more, it should be an age III or IV card

[WolfishICE]

You’re arguing as if they were free. They’re 5 resources more expensive than a pikeman/crossbowman, and lack half their combat functions. Why age 3-4? I could have made an army shipment instead.

[Kingfisher1787]

@WolfishICE

Spain is very bad in Treati due to its weak late-game economy. So I disagree with your assessment.

You have to be fairly good with unit control but from my understanding it’s a up there at high skill levels. 2 haciendas allow for something approaching a 3rd factory with 20 cows on one and 20 sheep on the other. With the ~330c extra on all shipments inf 7 lancers becomes a very valuable card (roughly 1700 res vs 1k for most civs). Unction gets you very high attack, but requires a little extra micro. The faster shipment generation also helps you get all your upgrades in sooner.

@WolfishICE

I’ve played Spain very rarely in 1v1s, and I didn’t find it particularly strong. Tempo only gives an advantage in rushes, but rushes aren’t a guaranteed victory. It’s more a matter of luck.

They don’t suit my personal play style, but they are good. Watch how people play them in tournaments. You usually FF. Marvelous Year also allows you to build up some fast eco if you don’t kill them early in age 3.

@WolfishICE

I completely agree that the game’s basic design is flawed. To make the game age as it is, ranged units should have a reload speed of 6.0 instead of the current 3.0, but I’m not counting on such changes because they’re too sweeping.

Not really a flaw. Melee becoming less effective is historically accurate given the time period of the game.

@WolfishICE

Also, I think Lancaster’s Law works the same in 1v1 as it does in 3v3.

No. Ranged units scale better the more units you have. A 3v3 with ~200 units on either side of a fight gives them substantially more units to scale off of. In a 1v1 where a fight might have 30 units on either side the effect is far more muted.

@WolfishICE

And you haven’t convinced me that the Rodelero occupies the same niche as the Tercio, but is inferior in every way. This unit needs to be redesigned to perform a specific function better. Either it should be better at fighting enemy melee infantry, or it should perform better against massed ranged units.

The unit functions perfectly well in 1v1. The speed allows them to catch up to small groups of skirms and force a fight if you have an advantage. The speed gives you more choice on when to engage. If it’s not advantageous you shouldn’t throw away units because you have a weaker eco. They are better than musketeers for this as if no melee interaction happens the enemy can simply run away.

@WolfishICE

@Kingfisher1787

Their dogs are very strong in 1v1. Ask anyone who’s really good in 1v1. They might agree the card to upgrade them isn’t worth it, but the idea that dogs are strong is “propaganda” is ridiculous. Though to be fair in team they will fall off again being a melee unit.

If they’re only strong in fights between 20 units, they’re not a strong unit. If they’re strong in larger fights, then they should work in 3v3.

If they are strong enough to swing fights in 3v3 they will be overwhelming in 1v1.

[pedrito1]

Spain is very good in 1v1. In the Age 2, you can mass a huge number of units by minute 7/8. I can make around 50 infantry units by minute 8. The war dogs are really good because they act like cavalry that isn’t weak against pikemen, and you can create them during the battle. One thing that could be changed is making the card allow you to create 10 dogs, but without the 20% upgrade.

Another thing is that Spain gets a second shipment at around 2:30, but the only worthwhile Age I card is Capitalism, which means the build order is always the same. It would be nice to have a different alternative. For example, a shipment that sends a cathedral like the Mexican one to generate experience instead of gold, or moving the Inquisition card to Age I. This would give you better vision, and the Inquisitor could help collect treasures because he can heal the explorer. That card is pretty useless in Age II, which is why nobody uses it.

Another useless card is Tercio Tactics. I would completely rework that card. I would make it remove the x3 bonus against cavalry from musketeers, but in exchange, they would no longer be heavy infantry. Musketeers would become more like a Zouave: weaker against cavalry but more resistant to skirmishers. You could then combine them with a few pikemen or rodeleros to protect them from cavalry.

[WolfishICE]

@Kingfisher1787

You have to be fairly good with unit control but from my understanding it’s a up there at high skill levels. 2 haciendas allow for something approaching a 3rd factory with 20 cows on one and 20 sheep on the other. With the ~330c extra on all shipments inf 7 lancers becomes a very valuable card (roughly 1700 res vs 1k for most civs). Unction gets you very high attack, but requires a little extra micro. The faster shipment generation also helps you get all your upgrades in sooner.

There was a time when I was a top 150 Treaty player. Top tier: Russia, France, Mexico, Germany, USA, maybe Lakota. Spain lost almost every battle, as did Dutch, Iroquois, Maltese and Ottomans. I don’t understand why you are so sure that it works in Treaty. The only victories I’ve seen for Spain were due to them being able to take control of the natives. If you play on a map without natives, Spain has no chance. Its economy will deplete much sooner.

@Kingfisher1787

Not really a flaw. Melee becoming less effective is historically accurate given the time period of the game.

Yes, but this reduces the role of the musketeers by 50% and makes almost all melee builds irrelevant. And in reality, when the Spanish musketeers reached the Portuguese cassadores and engaged in melee, they slaughtered them all without much resistance. Precisely because of the reloading speed and combat readiness.

@Kingfisher1787

In a 1v1 where a fight might have 30 units

I understand why you say dogs are strong and rodeleros work. Even the Pioneers card works in a 30pop vs 30pop battle. But if you want to balance the game for such battles, then set the population limit to 100, not 200.
Like in Warcraft 3.

@Kingfisher1787

The unit functions perfectly well in 1v1. The speed allows them to catch up to small groups of skirms and force a fight if you have an advantage. The speed gives you more choice on when to engage. If it’s not advantageous you shouldn’t throw away units because you have a weaker eco. They are better than musketeers for this as if no melee interaction happens the enemy can simply run away.

I agree with what you’re saying. But given their damage output and the fact that the Missionaries won’t be around, you’ll need a 2x numerical advantage for this attack.You can simply use 5 hussars. They’ll not only catch up with the enemy skirms, they’ll also kill them all, without any outside help. It will be cheaper in terms of resources and limits.

@Kingfisher1787

If they are strong enough to swing fights in 3v3 they will be overwhelming in 1v1.

You are right, but that’s not what my design suggests. I just want to improve the civilization’s design, give it more bullet sponges, and increase its chances of winning against melee units. This doesn’t change the outcome of the entire game, but it opens up previously forbidden tactics.

@pedrito1

One thing that could be changed is making the card allow you to create 10 dogs, but without the 20% upgrade.

I’d like to clarify. How effectively are you gathering food while hunting to spam dogs like you say? From my experience, every +1 dog is -1 settler. And they’re not much use. They’re designed to fight melee infantry; they’re inferior to everything else. They can only absorb damage, since multipliers don’t work on them.

@pedrito1

Another thing is that Spain gets a second shipment at around 2:30, but the only worthwhile Age I card is Capitalism, which means the build order is always the same. It would be nice to have a different alternative. For example, a shipment that sends a cathedral like the Mexican one to generate experience instead of gold, or moving the Inquisition card to Age I. This would give you better vision, and the Inquisitor could help collect treasures because he can heal the explorer. That card is pretty useless in Age II, which is why nobody uses it.

I agree with the proposal to move the Inquisition to Age I. But I doubt it will boost its popularity. By the way, you could be sending the Conquistador card to Age I right now to farm treasures even faster and buff your dogs by 20%, which, as you yourself said, are very good in 1v1, but for some reason you’re not doing so.

@pedrito1

Another useless card is Tercio Tactics. I would completely rework that card. I would make it remove the x3 bonus against cavalry from musketeers, but in exchange, they would no longer be heavy infantry. Musketeers would become more like a Zouave: weaker against cavalry but more resistant to skirmishers. You could then combine them with a few pikemen or rodeleros to protect them from cavalry.

I agree the card is useless, but the changes you’re proposing are too radical. All musketeers in the game are heavy infantry, and the Zouaves are OP unit that should be nerfed.

@pedrito1

I can make around 50 infantry units by minute 8.

If you’ve invested in your army instead of your economy, it means your opponent is ahead in tempo. He might already be halfway to the cannons. So, you need to attack immediately. That’s my opinion. I’d like to ask how the game is going with 50 infantry at the 8-minute mark?

[pedrito1]

Ten war dogs would be like five slower hussars, but with the advantage that they don’t have the cavalry tag. They would be the perfect complement for Spain, which usually has a lot of heavy infantry and needs something that can deal with skirmishers. The cost of the dogs isn’t high because food is gathered very quickly (especially with the market upgrades), and you have the explorer acting as a mobile barracks.

[pedrito1]

I used the Conquistador card instead of Capitalism, but it’s only worthwhile on the Unknown map, and I still prefer Capitalism. The idea behind Anointing is that you also give your team a permanent vision bonus, and the Inquisitor helps you a lot since it’s a healing unit. The most treasures I’ve ever collected have been on Unknown maps when you start with a Missionary, because it keeps healing the Explorer and lets you go from treasure to treasure very quickly.

[pedrito1]

What I do is build up a large army instead of attacking with a small number of units at minute 6. I reach the next stage a little faster than with a typical FF, although without cannons. I like this approach because it also allows me to defend myself better against a possible fast rush from civilizations like Baja California, the Aztecs, or the Haudenosaunee.

[WolfishICE]

I understand. I wanted the Conquistador card to be used on more than just the Unknown map, while also making Spain unique in its combat tactics compared to other European civilizations. Why are you against a 20% buff? Dogs aren’t free, after all, so the card could increase their economic efficiency. And I’ve already stated repeatedly that they can’t destroy enemy economies (villagers and buildings).

---

@Skadidesu

Rodelero are kind of a relic from being added to the game before TWC. All other comparable units are Shock Infantry but they are not.

My suggestion is to turn them into Shock Infantry and potentially even remove Hussars from Spanish. Then they would have a purpose that is clearly distinct from the Pikeman and also distinct from the Lancer.

I was thinking it would be better to keep him as heavy infantry, just give him 20% ranged armor, +2 base damage, reduce his cavalry multiplier -1.0, and give him +0.25 against shock infantry. This would highlight his uniqueness.

[Kingfisher1787]

@WolfishICE

There was a time when I was a top 150 Treaty player.

Treaty rank doesn’t mean as much as you might think, but if you want to argue that way, I was rank 69 in treaty at one point and rank 72 for a long while (both a while back).

Spain has a very high skill ceiling in treaty, but also a very low floor.

link goes out to Youtube

I linked a tier list from 2024. I think he’s fairly high level, and while I disagree with his ranking of Spain over Mexico I have little doubt that Spain is within the top 25% or so of civs in treaty at the high levels and below average at lower levels (based on our ranks, that’s probably both of us btw). Some civs are far easier to play.

@WolfishICE

@Kingfisher1787

The unit functions perfectly well in 1v1. The speed allows them to catch up to small groups of skirms and force a fight if you have an advantage. The speed gives you more choice on when to engage. If it’s not advantageous you shouldn’t throw away units because you have a weaker eco. They are better than musketeers for this as if no melee interaction happens the enemy can simply run away.

I agree with what you’re saying. But given their damage output and the fact that the Missionaries won’t be around, you’ll need a 2x numerical advantage for this attack.You can simply use 5 hussars. They’ll not only catch up with the enemy skirms, they’ll also kill them all, without any outside help. It will be cheaper in terms of resources and limits.

Obviously Hussars are better, but real games are messy, and being able to wipe out a few skirms can actually be game winning. Not immediately, but later when missing a few skirmishers shifts a bigger battle. Sometimes a small advantage in numbers can turn into a very unfavorable trade for your opponent.

Having said all that, arguing in circles is a waste of time and I don’t currently feel inclined to do that here. Spain has serious issues in prolonged team games, but functions fine otherwise imo. Trying to buff melee units to function as well as ranged units in team will wreak 1v1 balance. Dogs are great in 1v1. Sometimes that one free dog can stop your opponent from getting to build a TP in transition which is massive and being able to train half-hussars on the battlefield in an early age 3 push is significant.

[WolfishICE]

So, since no new participants have appeared, I suppose it’s time to sum things up.
All participants in the discussion agreed that Spain is struggling in the late game. Once players’ armies reach the population limit, Tercio, Rodelero, and Dogs become useless, limiting Spain to only Skirm/Goon and Musketeer/Lancer strategies. The entire “Archaic Combat” card lineup disappears from the game. That is, the strategy that works with dogs, spies, crossbowmen, and melee infantry.

MORE SPANISH DOGS

My proposal for explorers has been clarified:

• +175% damage/hp total for two cards: Conquistador and Team Destreza.
• My idea of ​​gold per kill for the Spanish explorer to make card investment more justified remains.
• I found no evidence to support the idea that dogs are OP. No one has offered a coherent response to my arguments that they cost resources and can’t attack the economy (villagers and buildings). Therefore, I’m also keeping the idea of ​​+5 limit for the Conquistador card.

CROSSBOWMAN

It turned out to be so bad that its buff didn’t meet with any criticism. On the contrary, I encountered criticism that the buffs I proposed were too weak. The proposal remains the same:

• receives buffs from all three Archaic Combat, Corselet
• +1 to range from any line upgrade.

TERCIO

We still need to move the Spanish Square to age 2 or 3. But there’s a problem with that. Ages 2 and 3 are cluttered with cards under the limit. There’s simply no room. Therefore, I propose putting this upgrade in Team Hidalgos or any other that has already been chosen.

SPY

Everyone agrees that the spy is a dead unit. My suggestion is to simply make him less specialized.

• 3x multipliers against heroes, mercenaries, natives and outlaws
• base damage 10
• charged attacks work on all units, pistol attacks deal more damage, and carbine attacks have 10x multipliers

This unit’s balance can be tweaked as much as you like; it’s built in a church and can’t be spammed properly. Moreover, Spain isn’t the only civilization that suffers from this unit’s uselessness in the game.

ECONOMY

No one objected to the progressive gold increase for the Spanish Gold card. And I would like to avoid repeating the decisions of other civilizations.

• 250c +10c per shipment
• crossbowmen and tercios: wood cost → coins

RODELERO

Everyone has different ideas. Some people just want to give him a stat boost, others suggest a different tag. I’ll generalize that it would be better if he didn’t compete with Tercio for the same role. Because he and Tercio share the same buffs from cards. Currently, he’s inferior to Tercio in every way, and his only advantage is his gold cost instead of wood. If you need more specifics, I’d add:

• Multipliers vs. Cavalry 2.0, vs. Shock Infantry 3.0, vs. Natives 2.0
• Base Damage +2
• +20% Ranged Armor

It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s definitely a working solution.

---

Thank you all for the discussion.

[Ekdal1378]

@WolfishICE

All participants in the discussion agreed that Spain is struggling in the late game. Once players’ armies reach the population limit, Tercio, Rodelero, and Dogs become useless

Lol, the other way around, when pop limit is reached free pop units like pets are an advantage not every civ has acces to.

You say dogs arent free, like any other unit?? What did you expect? And no, 40 food more than a pike is not comparable to 40 wood, food is gathered a lot faster

There is no chance of an age 1 unit having no penalty vs villagers that would be too OP.

Finally, last but not least, they can be buffed by unction