all of these are old. not a single one from ‘late 2021’ which has Nomad losing.
all but 2 of your ‘examples’ dont even have Nomad up for vote, but are other maps with Nomad start
so your correlation of ‘more votes, Nomad is more likely to lose’ is very questionable.
If i were to hazard a guess, it’s that the number of votes dropped after the ban/favourite system was introduced, so people stopped caring about these votes since they can just ban whatever they dislike. Which is also a hint what you should do if you don’t like a map: ban it
Well, that’s a blatant lie. Nomad is nomad regardless of what map it appears in. And also, mid 2021 was my corrected statement. Regardless, it refutes the claim that my data is all from 2020. And it also refutes your claim that ‘there’s no proof or any games above 1k votes’
And even if my data was only from 2020, I would trust it much more than the current dates due to the horrendously low participation in votes.
As for my general ‘banning’ preference. Being forced to ban a map because it starts as an entirely separate game mode feels allot more like a ban that’s forced to be wasted rather than focusing the very limited ban numbers on something you might actually consider playing within that particular queue.
Ok. Can you stop now? It’s so repetitive, from both sides, no-one is ever going to change their view, and most people don’t agree with you. @anon63664082, can this topic be closed?
the topic remains open/active for 1 month to allow for proper time in the poll. I’m certain that more arguments could be presented by the opponents. Ones that aren’t so easily refuted.
No. This topic actually needs to close. The opponents have already presented arguments that prove you wrong, but you don’t want to accept them. Besides, as you yourself have established, not many polls actually get enough votes.
I don’t play or practice heavy water/naval maps, yet I don’t think they need a separate game mode or ELO.
People will often practice what they love most, and if you don’t practice nearly as much as them in whatever passion that may be, chances are good you’ll lose horribly 99% of the time if you face them.
If Nomad maps are presently a weakness for you, I’m sorry if it means you need to practice Nomad when you don’t want to… but it’s part of the game. I don’t feel it is so vastly different of a game mode than a standard game that solidly practicing 10 or 20 times won’t make you a worthy opponent; especially if you already have a solid foundation of AoE skills, which it sounds like you have. Same with water maps. I don’t really like water maps, but I should probably commit some practice and research time to them if I don’t want to lose 99% of the time I play them.
If Nomad truly needs to be a different game mode, then yes, it should have its own ELO. Same with all other game modes. I’ll call them sub-ELOs… one ELO per category. And there’d also be an overall/overarching ELO rating, though, that would be a score based on a combination of every game mode in AoE.
So, if you play every game mode and are great at every one (Regicide, Treaty, Nomad, etc.), then you’d have a great overall ELO rating.
If you only play Nomad, or only play normal mode, your sub-ELO may be great for these categories you isolate yourself to, but your overall ELO rating won’t be that great because you never play Regicide, Treaty, etc.
In the end, a great overall ELO score would truly show that you’ve mastered the AoE game as a whole. Whereas, good sub-ELOs will show you mastered only a particular game mode or two if you only play that mode or two.
I like this in theory – because should AoE’s ELO really be based solely on if you’re good at Arabia or not? – but I realize there probably aren’t enough players who want to deviate from normal mode to adequately find ranked matches for all the various game modes, if this were to be implemented. ALT+F4’ers would help make this not work, too
please dont accuse me of lying. what did i say that was a lie?
no, what the data shows is that Nomad is a popular map. Land Nomad and Water Nomad less so.
When people say ‘Nomad’ they mean the map, because that’s what the map is called. other maps with nomadic starts have their own names.
not what I said.
or because it suits your narrative. Considering the number of votes is only about 1/2 of previous polls, it’s more likely that preferences have changed than that this is a statistical error.
this exact argument applies to Arena for me. you dont see me demanding the world revolves around me and have it removed from the queue because i cant play it. arena is more like a separate game mode if compared to arabia, than Nomad is if compared to some hyprid map
-you claimed Nomad is its own game mode, it was shown to you it isn’t
-your argument that ‘standard play’ and ‘nomad’ elo doesnt transfer 1:1 is a fallacy because the same is true for literally every pair of maps.
-your comparison of Nomad, the aoe2 map, and nomadic starts in aoe1 was shown to be in error
-your completely made up stuff about villagers spawning in treelines or wolves
-that your Poll is biased in the way it’s phrased
-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomad loses’ has been shown as wrong
-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomadic starts lose’ has been shown as questionable at best, considering other major factors could be the reason
How about you tell me ‘how’ it was proven rather than saying it was. Currently all I see is a list of stuff I’ve already reasonably refuted with at least some logic.
As for the lie, your saying that ‘all but 2 of my examples contain nomad’ is utterly false, and your assumption that nomad is only the original map made by the original devs is ignoring that each new map made under nomad is nomad with names to differentiate whatever the map is just like we have names for all standard maps. The difference between standard and nomad maps is that standard 99% of the time has a fully standard start and nomad maps 99% of the time have a fully nomadic start, and nomad maps all contain either the name ‘nomad’ or are indicated as of late to contain it.
You’ll have to note that nomad was added into the game from age 1 where it was its own game mode, and added into age 2 with an even more nomadic style, however only as a single map. Why it was added in as a single map, we don’t know; my ‘speculative’ arguments as to the reason for that is varied, and even if one is proven to be unlikely does not make it false.
it’s not a lie, as there is no intent to mislead.
‘Nomad’ is the name of a map. Out of the polls you posted only 2 contain that map (unless i miscounted)
So this is a disagreement at best. I ask you to withdraw your accusation of lying.
i dont know what you are trying to say
As for the hows:
-you claimed Nomad is its own game mode, it was shown to you it isn’t
open the game and check. you would LIKE it to be its own game mode, but it currently isnt
-your argument that ‘standard play’ and ‘nomad’ elo doesnt transfer 1:1 is a fallacy because the same is true for literally every pair of maps.
this should be obvious, but here is how: if each map had its own elo, no two elos would be the same (except for maybe something like Arabia:Runestones)
so the argument ‘elo of X and elo of Y doesnt tranfer 1:1, therefore X and Y should not be in the same map pool’ is incorrect. (in fact the exact opposite is true, the devs want a DIVERSE map pool)
-your comparison of Nomad, the aoe2 map, and nomadic starts in aoe1 was shown to be in error
it wasnt following this too closely since i’ve hardly played aoe1. there were however several comments disagreeing with you on this
-your completely made up stuff about villagers spawning in treelines or wolves
you claimed this without evidence, when asked to provide evidence you didnt. so it’s fair to assume it’s made up
-that your Poll is biased in the way it’s phrased
you only present one side of the argument in the question and then ask a leading question ‘the devs obviously agreed with me; do you?’
-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomadic starts lose’ has been shown as questionable at best, considering other major factors could be the reason
I did that just now, let me spell it out: the other major factors being:
–time (ie it’s reasonable to think that preferences have shifted)
–change in map pool mechanics: with the introduction of bans/star voting behaviour changes
–it’s a weak correlation to begin with, several outliers on both sides
Refer to the comment above yours one more time, added to it just before your post.
You’re still listing stuff off rather than explaining by detail how it was ‘proven false’.
If you want me to remove the accusation, then add in the phrase ‘while all of those polls contain nomad style maps, I don’t see more than 2 with the original nomad map.’ Etc. Then it’d be at least tolerable; however I feel that the argument that nomad is now a stand-alone map and is not tied to other nomad maps is very much false; every new nomad map is nomad with a different style or name while still being labeled as nomad.
Therefore when speaking of nomad, I mean all nomad maps.
The other portion I had trouble with was your line about ‘none of the polls being from late 2021’
And ‘all of them being old.’
The phrase you were referring to was changed to mid-2021 before you posted that. And just labeling them as old and irrelevant is to ignore larger testing groups and therefore to ignore more accurate results.
you are plainly unwilling to admit you are wrong. there is really nothing that needs to be added to my ‘hows’. There is no further explanation needed for most of these. how much more detail can one provide for something like “you claimed this without evidence, when asked to provide evidence you didnt”
or: you claim that Nomad is its own game mode. you can literally open your game, start a skirmish and check ‘Game Modes’. I understand it’s your opinion that Nomad SHOULD appear there, but it is fact that it isn’t there.
etc
but these are completely different maps! Land Nomad plays nothing like Nomad. As for Steppe, African Clearing, Water Nomad, i’ve hardly played them because they arent in the pool that often. But i dont expect them to play like Nomad, the same way i dont expect gold rush to play like four lakes.
this is your feeling, not a fact. you shouldnt accuse me of lying because i disagree with your feeling/opinion.
also you are making it sound like this is a recent change. Nomad has been its own map since 2000.
but this is exactly the point you are missing: a Nomad start doesnt change much. Nomad plays more like mediterranean/scandinavia than it does like Land Nomad or Steppe etc.
you are asking for misunderstandings then. i suggest calling them nomadic maps, maps with nomadic starts, nomad-style or something of the like.
what i said is true. none of these are from late 2021, and that is what I remember reading when i was writing the comment. if you write stuff that’s wrong, then see the data contradicts you and edit your previous comments, you can’t expect people to go all the way back to re-read checking if you corrected yourself.
I didnt say they are irrelevant. What I was saying is that your entire argument relies on old data, which undermines it, since you are ignoring the more recent data. The suspicion is that you are picking the older data because it suits your point of view.
A neutral take-away from this could be something like this: over time fewer people are voting, Nomad is getting more popular, while other maps with Nomadic starts seem to stay about the same.
in the end this entire discussion boils down to one question: what’s the purpose of the RM queue?
I think we can agree that we want the following:
-map diversity
-evenly matched opponents
I think Nomad (and other nomadic starts) adds to map diversity.
in a pool that can contain Arabia, Arena and Islands, i dont think Nomad will impact the fairness of match-making. Like with all other maps in the pool, if one doesnt ban them one should perpare for them
Firstly, I apologize for accusing you of lying, I probably rushed into that emotionally.
Maps are great when they’re different from eachother and it adds good diversity. Islands, arabia, runestones, arena, black forest, 4 lakes, etc all have the standard start in common that grounds them within the same game mode regardless of how the map surroundings change how you play them.
It’s the same for nomad types - the nomadic start binds all nomad maps together regardless of surroundings and how they change your approach.
It would be the same for empire wars regardless of what age the game starts in.
same for regicide.
same for death match.
It is a fact that you can open age 1 and it is most certainly there.
As for in age 2 it was added but only as a single ‘map’ geared to play the game mode. why? we don’t know;
What we do know, however is that the game mode is currently only being implemented on a map to map basis, and it is still being implemented with various knew ‘fan maps’ made for the game mode.
Consider this: Nomad wasn’t named a name for the map; The Nomad map was named for the game mode, and it was the only map with Nomad available in it. Nomad is purely Nomad, the game mode, and any new maps under nomad are part of the nomad game mode family.
Maps are great when they’re different from eachother and it adds good diversity. Islands, arabia, runestones, arena, black forest, 4 lakes, etc all have the standard start in common that grounds them within the same game mode regardless of how the map surroundings change how you play them.
It’s the same for nomad types - the nomadic start binds all nomad maps together regardless of surroundings and how they change your approach.
It would be the same for empire wars regardless of what age the game starts in.
same for regicide.
same for death match.
and most certainly the same for Nomad.
Nomad was implemented as a single map before the fans of the game mode made even more maps made specifically for it. Nomad being restricted to a single map does not necessarily make it just a map, especially now that we have many maps tailored for the game mode.
Maps are great when they’re different from eachother and it adds good diversity. Islands, arabia, runestones, arena, black forest, 4 lakes, etc all have the standard start in common that grounds them within the same game mode regardless of how the map surroundings change how you play them.
It’s the same for nomad types - the nomadic start binds all nomad maps together regardless of surroundings and how they change your approach.
It would be the same for empire wars regardless of what age the game starts in.
same for regicide.
same for death match.
and most certainly the same for Nomad once more.
This is true, and I apologize again for the inconvenience for the late edit of the comment you read.
but rest assured I will correct myself if I see something in error as I did with that comment.
I assure you I have not been ignoring more recent data, I looked through the recent polls that I could find and was unable to find any above 1k votes for 1 vs 1. If you’d like I could gather every single poll, but I would advise that would be a little confusing due to the low participation in the latest polls as well as possibly even more inaccurate due to those low numbers.
the banning system does make it easier to focus on a particular type of maps, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I would love to see in-game all random map scripts available in the queue at once and players may ban(in 1 vs 1) 49% of maps, star 51% of maps. that way players will be able to have a starred map(if up to 51%) even if the enemy somehow bans every single map you star and you like-ways somehow his/hers’ maps and even then there would be some maps available left over which would keep queue times as they are now.
Map diversity is well and accounted for with changed surroundings around the standard start that change the way you approach the game. I believe that having nomad in the same pool with 90%+ standard start maps is generally bad for the nomad player-base which would do well with its own ranked lobby system or a ranked queue, or both.
Yes, and nomad is a shared name within many nomad maps as part of their names, and as of late has been shifted into the picture of the maps, especially now that some nomad maps lack the name ‘nomad’.
Nomad is more of a title these days for any map that contains the nomad game mode.
In age 1 it most certainly is a game mode. In age 2 it still is, however only on a map to map basis for one reason or another; It never the less is its own standard.
The Elo from map generation to map generation within the same standard game mode differing so greatly is due to players focusing mainly on one or two map type variations, not because the game mode is different. this is a cultural problem, not a game mode one. Nomad’s elo doesn’t transfer 1:1 because the standard start is different; The standard start that ties maps such as arabia, runestones, 4 lakes, islands, arena, etc together is the standard start, the one thing they all have in common that grounds them firmly within the same mode.
Nomad on the other hand has its own starting standard, and that’s fine, but in its own ranked lobby/queue as its own game mode.
Comments disagreeing with me is nothing to be surprised about. and the argument wasn’t shown to be in error; part of the argument was shown to be possibly unlikely, not false, and there are other arguments around that are ‘possible’ factors as to why Nomad was only implemented on a map to map basis alone rather than its previous position in the original game. It was still given the respect to be improved on and added to age 2, but why only on a map to map basis we do not know, and the ‘possible arguments’ about why it is such are just that, possibilities while holding that the game mode is still a game mode from age 1 and implemented on a map to map basis in age 2 accountable as the fact.
Possible arguments, many more - if one is proven ‘unlikely’ two more shall take its place. Hail Hydra.
“The original devs most certainly had this opinion; Do you?”
The original devs made nomad its own game mode in age 1.
and they added in the game mode nomad in age 2 but only as a single map for one reason or another. We know not why, but we can take the fact that they acknowledge it as a game mode in their original game and that they transferred it to age 2 in an even more nomadic state as even further firm proof that they wanted the game mode in the game. Whatever the limitation was or if it was just easier to place it into a single map is another story and arguments as to why it happened like this can be as varied as they wish to be. And even the argument that ‘proved it false’ did not prove it false, and only somewhat unlikely. The game mode being implemented into hyper random/mega random does not prove that it could be done on every single map with the push of a button, and the other argument immediately besides that is whether or not nomad even makes sense on most maps or certain maps in particular, think arena or fortress for instance.
Aye, there are always many factors to think about.
Never the less, I will go with the higher numbers data, even if it isn’t up to date because it’s more in line with possibly being accurate to the community as a whole.
as I’ve shown above, although some of those posts were well written and had a decent premise, they did not prove anything about the argument wrong, only somewhat unlikely yet not impossible.
Maps are great when they’re different from eachother and it adds good diversity. Islands, arabia, runestones, arena, black forest, 4 lakes, etc all have the standard start in common that grounds them within the same game mode regardless of how the map surroundings change how you play them.
It’s the same for nomad types - the nomadic start binds all nomad maps together regardless of surroundings and how they change your approach.
It would be the same for empire wars regardless of what age the game starts in.
same for regicide.
same for death match.
and most certainly the same for Nomad.
The original age 1 and original devs seem to say otherwise, regardless of their single map for nomad to exist in policy in age 2, and there are many possible reasons for that and for nomad being made even more nomadic within its own standard, which even further justifies its existence as a separate game mode.
Possible arguments, and there are many to take its place if it falls, which it has yet to, and the argument that ‘proved it wrong’ only proved it to be somewhat unlikely, not false. It is still very well a possible reason why it was added tom maps tailored for the game modes existence and there are many more possible reasons.
Yes, and it’s also informative and attempts to flesh out my current reasoning around the problem so others might see it and judge it for themselves and make their own assessments of it regardless of how it differs from my own. Which is why it’s yes/no and if in the middle comment below because I am very much interested in differing opinions.
Until we see more polls with more than 1k or more preferably 1.4k votes, I see it as being as right as it could be with the lack of new polls with high amounts of voters. therefore it has not been shown as wrong. in fact it is currently proven more and more right.
Questionable? sure; but not as questionable as is the current small voter pool we have currently with the low 3 day time limit of the map votes, and most certainly the lack of much if any voter data showing the opposite to be possibly true.
I would be very much interested in seeing all the data and factors at play. A more accurate approach would be a wonderful contribution.
Nomad meant nomad when nomad was a single map that held the entire game mode within its bounds.
Nowadays Nomad means every single nomad map with nomad consistently within it upon opening the map.
Now we can say this particular nomad map or already have nomad maps in mind while saying the particular name of the map in question, but nomad is nomad now and it was nomad before age 2 existed. Nomad is nomad, and nomad deserves its own proper game mode/title/recognition.
That is a cultural thing where players focus on one or two map types instead of broadening their horizons to the full game mode. On the other hand, Nomad changes the game mode.
Maps are great when they’re different from eachother and it adds good diversity. Islands, arabia, runestones, arena, black forest, 4 lakes, etc all have the standard start in common that grounds them within the same game mode regardless of how the map surroundings change how you play them.
It’s the same for nomad types - the nomadic start binds all nomad maps together regardless of surroundings and how they change your approach.
It would be the same for empire wars regardless of what age the game starts in.
same for regicide.
same for death match.
and most certainly the same for Nomad.
Nomad is its own standard, and maps vary just as much for nomad as it does for the normal standard game mode style.
