Why not give Burmese age upgrades cost wood instead of gold? It would synergize with the free wood upgrades e.g. 800 food 200 wood, 1000 food 800 wood.
That’s too cheap!! I think Burmese are just difficult to learn and master. They are fine now as they are.
They’re too limited and polarized in my opinion.
They’re super strong on closed maps, and utter garbage on open maps.
Since open maps are played FAR MORE than closed maps, they suck on average.
They arent even that great in closed maps tbh
Also, it doesnt seem too cheap
I mentioned this in another thread, what if Burmese got Imperial Skirmishers as a regional unit upgrade (like Winged Hussar)? The additional 1 pierce armor would help make up for the missing leather archer armor, and Imp Skirms would help both of Burmese weaknesses in 1v1: Spears and Archers.
Burmese was top civ at rajas release and was disgusting
I’m not opposed to improve them on 1v1 though.
Just make a new civ bonus: Stable units get +2/+4 attack vs builidings in castle/Imperial Age, if they can’t kill archers, kill the production 11
The OP is underestimating the free lumbercamp upgrade. People love to complain about free farm upgrades from Franks but I can guarantee you that if Burmese had free farm upgrades they would perform worse and Franks with free lumber upgrades would be truely OP.
It’s out of place because it’s just a bad attempt at making complaints stop. Seriously it’s actually worse than the old effect against archer civs cuz instead of buffing your raiding to exploit their lack of mobility, you have to try and dive your hussars/cavaliers against their archer deathball. Which is dumb because those units don’t stand up to arrow fire that well, and the archer player can just stone walls and click halbs and be set for the rest of the match. It also nerfed Burmese against non archer civs for 0 reason. Oh and their eles make no sense now. The old effect +howdah made them a ram/cav hybrid which makes sense for an elephant, now they are just a fat huskarl that will never catch archers besides late game spam scenario, where the +5 bonus is just overkill anyway. Meanwhile Khmer can fix their speed issue against archers by just clicking husbandry, and Malay can at least use all those res to overwhelm with sheer numbers. And Viet don’t care about archers so it’s not like the Burmese ele being better against range than the Viet one matters at all.
So yeah, everything about the change was just bad. I’m pretty sure almost no one even bothered to try and use it just to see if it works, because it’s so obvious it doesn’t.
I thought they were only worse against buildings now.
No, I understand how good free LC upgrades can be. I just don’t feel like it’s a bonus that really suits Burmese, and considering how weak they are usually, they could do with something stronger.
It’s a wood bonus, it’s almost impossible for it not to fit. Sure the Burmese have bonuses for food units, but wood bonus means more farms anyway. One of the civ’s selling point is their m@a rush and free lumber camp upgrades helps that perfectly. Other civs might have to delay double bit axe to have m@a asap, Burmese will never have to, and if things go well they can choose to get horse collar where other civs would have to spend their ressources on m@a+double bit axe. Eco is not the Burmese’s issue at all.
WTF is this reason
Well I brought up m@a because I have a basic understanding of how this game works. You can’t just say “this civ is weak cuz some of their viable stuff looks ugly”.
I should develop this idea more. Burmese Imperial Skirmishers with the first armor upgrade would have 6 Pierce Armor and 8 attack, much like Aztec Elite Skirms, but with only 8 range (Aztecs have 9) and 1 melee armor (Aztecs have 2). Both have 35 HP. These Imperial Skirms would be used much like Aztecs’, to protect their Champions (both with high attack, but generic speed, HP and pierce armor) from enemy archers (foot and mounted).
In the case of Burmese, these Skirmishers are also crucial for protecting their cavalry and elephants from enemy halberdiers. It could be said that Burmese swordsmen are the intended counter for mass spears, but adding another food + gold unit in addition to elephants or knights is often too expensive in 1v1. Skirms costing primarily wood are a much better complementary unit, even if it does require a little food too.
Imp skirm is pointless since the Burmese’s issue with archers happens in castle age. Heck they have bracer so they are probs better than Frank and Celts skirms once in imp. Burmese don’t have issues with halbs anyway because even if they are too broke for champs they can just use their own halbs to kill enemy halbs.
Hmm, I’m not a Burmese expert, but I have run into problems when facing against civs that go Arbalester + Halberdier (Britons, Ethiopians, Mayans, even Malay). Burmese Champions and Halbs get shredded by ranged attacks, and while elephants and cavaliers do well against archers, there’s no way to get past the spears. Typically this Arb + Halb combo is countered by Skirmishers, but Burmese skirms are just too weak for that option.
Franks and Celts do have very bad late game skirmishers as well. They’re fine in Castle Age at least, unlike Burmese. In Imperial, Celt siege seems to make up for it, as their Scorpions and Onagers can clear a mass of enemy archers. Franks don’t have the best siege, but they have some good options with Axemen to counter halbs, and Frankish Paladins are far better than Burmese Cavaliers or Elephants at maneuvering around spears and picking off archers while surviving a few hits.
I do agree on the Castle Age problem though. This is why the Imperial Age UT didn’t help the situation much and Imperial Skirms will also not help with this, but it would give one more motivation to go Imperial. Won’t completely fix the problem, but I think Burmese would get much more utility out of Imp Skirm than Vietnamese ever had (both civs can have the unit, just Rattans do a better job at the same role).
Hussar Champ BBC or Hussar Arambai BBC is strong enough.
And Burmese Imp skirms won’t be a thing, forget it. Their point is to have bad skirms, why would they get the Imp Skirm upgrade. It’s Viets who need it.
Burmese in post imp have FU hussar, FU cavalier, FU 9 PA Battle Elephant, FU BBC, FU Onager, more than enough stuff that deals with Arbs once they get to it.
The issue is castle age, with the UT ages being reversed I think it might actually fix enough in that department for them.
Just as a thought and hear me out. The current problem is the diversity missing and eventho some people like their original kit of uts it often felt like it missed his purpose. So what if the civ bonus is an 3/5 dmg vs archer in castle and imp for their cav and howdah as an imp ut but for castle i Thought off why not imcoperate something that was existing allready. A monk bonus like relics generate food so it stabilzes it a bit but keep their focus on cav inf and monks
cav bonus damage vs archer is already a thing for Persians.
Weird thought: how about +24 (or a huge number in general) damage vs knight for their elephants?
They still do fine against knights but they have less dmg after the change so in moderatei numbers they take more time shots to kill them. Maybe because knights don’t stack as much as archers so the improved dmg on missed shots doesn’t matter as much. I guess that’s not as important in large numbers but usually when playing arambai you do in early castle age on rather low eco. I might be wrong here but that was my experience with playing them after the changes.
Sure but the issue is arb halb compositions. Your halbs get shredded before they can engage other players halbs. In late game they do fine I guess but early imp fighting arb halb is a real pain as burmese.
To OP: Interesting discussion. I am not a pro-player and cannot comment on the wood-bonus change balance-wise, but I like the current free wood tech bonus already for simplicity.
Your reasoning about switching the two UT sounds logical and my feeling is that devs will take this step first before others, it just makes sense.
I also like your idea of bringing back the old Manipur bonus as a civ bonus (re-enabling back ram-style elephants, which was part of their identity).
Just one idea: What about switching this bonus with new Castle Age Manipur effect? This would mean:
(new) Civ bonus: Cavalry does more damage vs. archers (in Castle and Imp)
Castle Age UT: old Manipur cavalry (Cavalry inflicts more damage on buildings)
This would give them an instant help against archers as soon as reaching Castle Age (without the need to build a castle) while making it more difficult to reach the building-damage bonus