Militia is just too slow and susceptible to Archer fire, not to mention that it is not really that cheap, to use without a good bonus.
Pikes and Halbs are at least cheap and can make a screen for Siege and Archers, not to mention thy are a counter unit to one of the most prolific unit types in Medieval games.
Infantry just needs more options, since having 2 units is honestly pathetic for the time period.
Where are my Macemen with Mace and Large Shield, that upgrade into Foot Knights with Lucerne Hammer and Heater Shield?
Were are my Axemen that upgrade into Poleaxemen?
Even the Halberd was not an upgrade to the Pike in real life, it was a support weapon to the Pike formation, to expell closing Infantry that made it past the pike wall edge.
Yeah i like the idea of adding at least one more generic infantry line, if not even two.
One fast infantry with a considerable amount of pierce armor (not as much as eagles) armed with axes, which are good for raids. (comparable to the real “housecarl” - tomahawk => axe => two-handed axe (not poleaxe, this is a different weaponry))
One gold-intensive heavy armored elite infantry with halberds or pollaxes which can fight of many other unit types which aren’t actually considered “infantry-counters”. (also fits in with historical reports of the infantry elite units of this time - staff -> pollaxe -> warhammer/lucerne hammer)
And cavalry could get a slight damage bonus against archery offsetting the predictable meta-shift towards them because of more infantry play.
The Poleaxe was the Renaissance version of the old two-handed Battleaxe. Back then, weaponsmiths were playing around with a wide variety of pole-mounted weaponry, since the increased quality of steel made weapons significantlt lighter, and anyone could see that engagements were more and more decided at greater ranges, even in melee.
An Axeman unit that upgrades into a Poleaxeman in the Imperial Age, would be a cool Regional unit for Europe, for example.
Specially since the game is critically missing hiostoric Axemen units like the Varangian Guard and the Norman Axemen.
Actually axes were often used by cavalry before pikes made them almost unusable. They had good range and were easy to use, even when armored, against infantry units. While the lance was usually more used against other cavalry.
It’s somehow intrigueing that we see that much swords in the game, because this weapon was almost never used in medieval battlefield. Especially the one-handed variant. But it looks nice, for sure.
Not completely true. Though Swords were mostly sidearms, specially the one-handed variants, Longswords (two-handed) were main weapons invented to break Spear and Pike walls, to make sure other Infantry was able to close in the gap.
Two-handed Swords were actually battlefield weapons, meant to be used as a primary means of offense against Infantry formations. Most Infantry Axes were also made for the same principle, since the Bronze Age, but more to break Shields, rather than slice Pike shafts.
so as a potential unit some kind of axeman that upgrades into a poleaxe could ignore armour like the leitis? wondering how it would be balanced against the sword line? maybe less damage vs buildings, while at the same time current sword line could get a marginal speed increase and maybe more damage vs buildings (or whatever the various recommendations were people brought up last time around, something like bonus damage vs scout line or whatnot)
Axes are not designed to overcome armor, this was the use of pollaxes, halberds and warhammers.
Also you would rarely overcome full plate with any of these weapons. Usually the fight was about bringing your opponen to the ground so you have the opportunity to dish your dagger in the gaps of his armour.
was thinking about this earlier, and although thy arent the explicitly known historical variants, we do have things like viking champs with bonus damage vs cavalry and extra hp (to possibly represent some kind of pole arm thats decent vs infantry and cav), we have jaguar warrios to possibly represent macemen (represented by bonus damage to infantry) and so forth
obviously not as diverse as things like the total war games, but i think one of the appeals of aoe (to the masses) is that there arent that many different unit types even if we would prefer it otherwise
oh yeah i understand, it was more about what would be the purpose of the unit (aka for diversity sake)
like there’s already so much arguing of something like a steppe lancer for identity… there would be even more for yet another foot soldier… since there’s already high damage dealers and armoured guys and so forth (berserks, jags, TKs) i stand to be corrected but in total the melee foot line is the most diverse type in the game even if its spread across UUs
so possibly something like the shotel (except instead of high damage it could have bonus damage vs vils and possibly even more damage vs buildings?) again for identity, and thereby through balance it could have better hp but lower speed than a shotel
yes this would be interesting. Also a considerable amount of pierce armour, which might not be historical correct, but would help with raiding as a infantry unit.
And by keeping its generic dps and hp down it could possibly be differentiated from the huskarl and scout line respectively
But it is funny how so many different units become comparative… Because now we can also compare to malian champs (high PA but lower dps than generic champs) as well as eagles (low dps but high PA)
Maybe, but I think it would be better as a Trample Damage dealer, like the BEs, but for Euro civs and Saracens (Egyptian Axemen), with the exception of Slavs.
It could be a unit with Damage bonus vs Siege, which would be very unique for Infantry, and have more attack than Militia line units, but less Melee Armour.
this could be interesting, too. quite fast unit with trample, considerable pierce armour. I don’t think they need an extra bonus against siege, because siege is very vulnerable to melee already, but maybe vills, so they have at least 2 roles.
I think it should not be a particularly fast unit, so it does not clash with Eagles and Huskarls for a role, but indeed a unit that is hard to counter with Archers.
I think they would need to split the units. For example a one hand axeman with a shield (good for raiding with pierce armour) and a slower two hand axeman/polearm (thus no or less PA)
Otherwise you could end up with something that is just too good at everything.
How would you counter a high PA, trample, fast damage dealer? (except by having certain units with very high attack bonuses) and even then those qualities all add up to sound stronger than an Eagle.
So possibly 3 new avenues of foot soldiers…
A "slower "trample damage two handed poleaxe (or some kind of weapon you know them better) for dealing with groups of enemies (countered by archers more easily) (maybe this is the mace /hammer instead)
A" faster" 3PA anti villager/building axeman (maybe not too high PA so it’s not too much of an anti archer unit)
Some kind of hybrid infantry that is decent against cavalry and decent against other infantry (but not as good as the sword line and not as good as the pike line) (maybe the pole axe here instead? Or this becomes the halberd and fhe current halberd becomes the long pike or something)
With other melee units. I also don’t think it should have even close hp or damage compared to the militia line.
But over night i considered this idea: Giving it 2 stances, comparable to the treb. One with shields up, which deflect all pierce damage except from structures and balistas, but can’t attack and moves slower. One without pierce armour but it can actually attack with trample. So you can have a very micro-intensive infantry unit, which could actually deal with archers to some extend. I’d like this idea.
In case you didn’t know the sword line originally was going to get this. Along with many other unique qualities for units that were scrapped. In one of SOTLs vids it sounds like aoe couldve been a very different game…
I guess its an option. Would have to be careful how to balance it. But similar to the steppe lancer needing micro to leverage its cost i can see this shield and two handed weapon working…
I guess that’s where the dps and trample would need to be fine tuned. High enough to deal with low armour units effectively while the shield is down. But low enough that non cavalry civs can still counter them effectively with melee units in blobs.