I just stumbled upon the longbow rant from the OP:
“I haven’t tried them but theoretically it seems powerful.”
“yeah obviously i come here from watching games. 1vs1 and team game”
“I wrote it, i viewed some matches.”
Ok this is enough. I’m not going to reply to this thread again.
Again attacking me without adressing the topic’s thread. ad hominem is discouraged.
The problem is that the early bonus lets them be ahead from other civs and start to mass mangudai. And even small numbers they are better than archers or ca due to them having faster attacks and speed.
And there are civs that don’t even have ‘generic units’ and you switch units anyway. You don’t have to be fixed but they have a powerful (‘generic’) mid units as well.
Steppe lancers don’t have the same functionality of knights. I’m talking about hussars.
Arambai cost more than them and they suck. Mangudai not only kill most of the cav archers of games (except tatars) but are effetive against siges as well.
and you still have to point out for the mongols
I just write suggestion, that is what this discussion is for. Finding out more suggestions. But everytime there is an obivous powerful civs, at least the same 4 people come in my thread and start to say that everything is perfectly fine because it has been the same for 20 years. Why don’t they go play the old game then?
If you think britons aren’t powerful, it is not to me that you need to say to learn the game.
I just can’t stay away it seems.
Mate, your tone is very attacking to begin with, look at the way you make every new thread. Stop being so innocent, my tone towards you is well earned. Didn’t you just boast about being famous? You should be happy, by getting “attacked”…no, for getting my attention.
It’s a castle unit. How can you even hope tomass them better than the opponents archery range or stable unit?
Arambai also have a different role. If the unit sucks, that may be but comparing it to mangudai as if it was another civ’s mangudai when it’s not, is a waste of an argument.
They are probably talking about it that way cause you are making it out to be that WHATEVER civ you are currently talking about, is the best in that discussion. When its not the case. So that kind of an argument is pointless and moot. Even if there are issues, you should try to address them in a completely different matter than PORTRAYING the civ in question to be the BEST AND MOST BROKEN OP THING EVER. Until you type in at the next thread about a different civ being that same thing.
You seem to have missed the point what I was even making with that. You talk about theory instead of playing yourself. Also, britons are powerful, on areas they’ve been assigned to be powerful at, as are all civs in various different ways and situations. Nothing wrong with that. The difference is saying that they are overpowered and need a nerf, when that is not necessarily the case. And again you’ll probably reply to this as if I’m attacking you, but you can’t comprehend any of the reasons that I’ve explicitly explained as to why I even am here, replying to you. All you do is feel getting attacked, while at the same time attacking yourself without reason.
And all bad threads, to be honest.
A true proponent of change for the sake of change.
I’m having trouble reading this but when I said generic I meant they become a generic civ without any bonus in castle age. Civs with strong castle age play like Slavs, Franks, Cumans and Vikings can pressure mongols with their superior boom and reach imperial faster and kill mongols, they can’t deal with post imperial mongols but they can deny Mongols to get there
Steppe lancers don’t have the same functionality of knights. I’m talking about hussars.
The hussars are the same, they are better in melee fights but they’re much worse against ranged, even skirms do 3 damage
Arambai are still great, don’t talk trash if you don’t know how to use them. These things destroyed melee units with their dps. With Burmese eco and their effectiveness in small numbers, they needed a nerf. They are effective from castle age and only need stable upgrades. And arambai cost 5 less gold, the extra wood is hardly a big deal because Burmese get free wood upgrades
I already said, castle age aggression where they’re the weakest. Even their late game is beatable by some civs like Berbers(hard counter), Magyars, Mayans, Indians, Koreans. Celts are also an honorable mention with halbs and siege onagers being rather problematic for Mongols to deal with, although celts aren’t much good in castle age themselves
more like he’s infamous.
i’m fine with people putting forward balance ideas, but these are ridiculous. magundai aren’t op because they can snipe siege.
To be honest this thread is borderline bullying.
I don’t feel like this is what the Age community is really about.
I understand the OP’s point. I played against mongols in an arena game, and this made short work of me.
I would need to play against a few more times before I would conclude it was broken though. I’d probably also look to some stronger players commenting on Arena civs for instance, maybe for ideas on how to counter it.
I think in my case I wasn’t fast enough with pushing mongols and allowed them to build up numbers too easily - I mean it’s a closed map like arena so feudal pressure (unless it’s towers or douching probably isn’t an option). So early castle push maybe even castle drop is an idea. Also in my case, I probably shouldn’t have engaged the main army and just went for raiding - I think if I scouted more they overchopped.
Maybe other people can give constructive suggestions.
Why do you think there is discussion subforum?
Because they are ahead than you early? Seems pretty obvious.
We are not talking about that? Jojo said they are resource heavy and thus they need to be good to which i said there are other units that are more resource heavy but don’t even compare to mangudai.
Not really? Every thread i make is being attacked because i counter example their arguments, like a discussion should be. I also always tell that if they don’t want to discuss about that particular topic and just insult me or be snobby, to get out of the thread.
Do you think devs balance changes because they continue to play the game for the entire month or because of theory on their data?
I see the same people attacking me, you included, but others different people actually participating in the discussion. I don’t need to be liked by everyone.
It is not that i am not listening as I always reply to you all with counter discussions when you point out how to do something.
hmm?
For the sake of balance but you can warp it however you want.
Vikings are too powerful indeed but the others can be dealt with early mongols bonus.
Yes but they have over 100 hp.
In theory, it is right but in pratice they suck because they are easily countered and have basically no accuracy. They were changed quite a bit but because or they were too op or they were too nerfed. Currently it is the latter where it is a very unique situational unit. 5 gold is also nothing in castle age.
Again, they have all castle age units with early eco bonus. How are you gonna beat civs that don’t have any castle age advantage?
Read the thread at least. I didn’t write to nerf mangudai but wrote that the mangudai combination with drill is a bit too powerful.
Thanks, i would like to point that they aren’t all broken but a little bit too powerful. Which means given 1 person with a little bit less skill than another, picking mongols, the mongols will win.
Mongols, Britons, Bombard Cannons…
They are already balanced.
Have you read his threads and the way he presents them and the way he doesn’t pay any attention to the arguments people give to him in them? He is filling these forums with new posts for no reason and he is not even listening what his been told. He just keeps arguing the same point he was since he posted without giving any consideration to the counter arguments. This is not bullying. I’m not slandering someone here for their looks or inarticulation or opinion on a taste of music. This is a place where we are supposed to try and have fruitful conversions about the future of the game, but it is not fruitful and leads to nowhere if the participants are not listening totally sensible arguments and just go with their own feelings on the matter, obliviously.
The eco bonus has little to no effect on castle age. On maps with standard hunt of 2 boar 4 deer, you get to feudal faster with one less vill and get out scouts faster than your opponent can wall or have his own scouts up. The damage you do depends on you and your enemy’s skill. If you manage to disrupt his economy enough, then I guess you get to have some level of vill lead on your way to castle. Civs like Slavs, Cumans and Persians have much stronger boom and overtake Mongols. If you honestly believe that the dark age boar they hunted had any meaningful impact in getting up castles and researching Elite Mangudai or massing onagers in imperial, then I don’t know what to say. Sure I’ll say this, the eco bonus seperates them from other deathball civs of not being weak to early aggression
It isnt one of the other:
In the end it a combination of factors. This question is wrong.
Let me quote some of the Forum Code of Conduct and Terms of Service:
and
So yes, you can discuss about the balance in a polite way. Have respect for other users with another point of view. Be respectful in the way you react.
Like Hardform said, your tone is very attacking. This is indeed in contrary to those rules. Your style of discussing makes we all react in this way. This style makes you at this moment ‘famous’ for coming up with stupid suggestions. I think i can speak as we: We have no issue with other users, except for you. Maybe it is better for if you do some self reflection. I dont wanna be harsh to you, i think you love AoE II DE and you really wanna help the game further. You have a good drive. But your style of discussing, your tone is just wrong.
Why you just quote this part of my quote?
I will never against a suggestion because ‘it has been the same for 20 years’. I dont have see this as a valid argument in most cases. It is like Hardform already said: You make this threads like you found the new BEST AND MOST BROKEN OP THING EVER. Most of those i dont see as something OP. For me it is not broken. That is something complete different than ‘because it has been the same for 20 years’. I am open for improvements and balance tweaks. I like the monthly balance changes so we can see every civ played. I see the frequent balance changes as something good for DE. Those balance changes has to make sense. So yeah, i dont agree to every suggestion. This is really not the same as saying i am against balance changes, because we already played the game for 20 years with this balance (which isnt even true).
No one fast castle into Mangudai, while fast castle Arambai are a popular strat, along with FC Plumes or FC Conqs.
Well, then other participants offer another counter argument and then you proceed to ignore them or provide bad answers. I still don’t know why BBC are too good compared to trebs and yet Teutons aren’t made OP because their castles can deny enemy BBC. You mentioned that some people thought Teutons were too slow, while ignoring the fact these people never called BBC OP either.
Oh yeah, guess what happens next. Viking OP on water (and let’s forget about the lack of fire galleys) Berserk 2 good? (no, archers and hand cannons don’t exist) Are you going to have better imagination as I have? Suspense!
Which compensates for lacking melee armour but not ranged armour. You can test it yourself in the scenario editor, a Mongol Hussar will die faster to skirms than a Spanish one.
Whic means that if you get enough of them, they will launch a cloud of darts able to kill several units with 1 click, as they will fall down on several targets. It prevents overkilling, as the same group of Mangudai would fire at the unit you clicked on and would waste tons of arrow.
It’s so obscenely expensive, it’s going to be rare to reach, and it would pretty much be a deserved win if you can get it without the opponent getting their own deathball.
No. Definitely not. A small skill difference won’t make civ differences that important.
You’re talking to the person who think scout rush is OP and not countered by spears.
Do you not think some of this would be a job for the mods though? Like if the posts were off topic they could be closed by mods. If people didn’t want to discuss them they could just leave them alone to fade into the background of the rest of the threads.
Maybe I’m exaggerating a bit on the borderline bullying - but I mean look at the comments:
Do you guys not think this comes across as overly harsh?
I do appreciate that there is reasonable suggestions and discussion happening in the thread about balancing as well and counter strategies, don’t get me wrong. It’s just intermingled with a lot of insults.
Bad balance ideas aren’t against the rules, so no need to close.
Some people do that and ignore it, as I was planning to before it went full on bs overload and claims of “ad hominem” Furthermore, you would be surprised how people are quick to believe some stuff is OP when they lose once to it and read an opinion similar to theirs. It’s how even nowadays people will describe Goths as OP and invincible late-game.
Let’s use an example: Do you know Mr.Smith? Every week he goes to the police station and claims he has been kidnapped by aliens. Of course the cops are used to this, know arguments won’t work and don’t wait much before pointing him the way out. Are they being “bullies” or commiting “ad hominem”?
In normal circumstances yes. But you can go looking through the threads his made and see for yourself.
I have a better suggestion: Watch the SOTL vid about UU Counters.
We all would appreciate a reasonable discussion. In the many threads of RoomOfTheEvil he shows us we cant really have a fruitful conversation with him, because his attitude. Yes, this is harsh to say about anyone. Please have a look at the complete picture. Just have a look in all his threads and see how the conversation went. At the start we all were polite. We all think his knowledge of the game is pretty bad. That is no problem at all. We all started this game with no background. We even give him some guides about counter units, based on his reaction we thought he didnt really know most counters.
There is just one issue: All arguments for his idea are great in his eyes, all arguments against his idea are not valid to him. He even said our counter arguments are offtopic. Same for the help we give him, like a good guide about counter units. We really tried to help, but all we got back was his crappy attitude.
So what started with giving someone advice ends in this behavoir in this thread. No, our behavior isnt great, but i really think is the result of the attitute / tone of RoomOfTheEvil. Issues only arise in his threads. There are no issues in other threads.
You may know: I have reported some of the discussions. I think this whole attitude goes to far. I did this already before this thread was made. Until now, no mod has showed up. For this reason in quoted the forum rules. For me the best approach for the mods will be a good conversation with RoomOfTheEvil. Maybe his tone will change.
Great guides! A must watch if you dont really know the counters!
I already linked both guides (also counter guide for the general units) in one of his suggestions threads to help him. His response? This advice is offtopic and therefore useless. Then he asked if we dont wanna post such crappy things into his threads. So we already tried to help him with these guides…
Which is an incredibly expensive combination all things considered and if your opponent manages to get it, they were already seriously far ahead.
You’re talking about researching
Elite magundai + associated techs.
Drill bit + siege techs.
And lastly something to guard the siege from cavalry.
Not to mention actually making the army in the first place.
The op has repeatedly called for nerfs of units not based on what he plays and feels is op but based on what he has seen people like the viper play and do.
He has suggested nerfing bombard cannons, El Dorado, and elite longbow as examples.
All 3 which have been the way they are since aoc (20+ years) and if we’re actually an issue would have been long pointed out by now.
I’m not going to say balance is fine in this game, but the op has a history of bringing up some of the most random nerf ideas I have ever seen.