[Suggestion] The hidden bonus damage of mangudai vs siege could be removed or other suggestions for nerf

  1. To balance out their fast siege tech that increases siege speed by 50%, one of two should be changed (the tech allows their ram to be as fast as knights). Every civ that has somekind of bonus for somekind of unit has nerfs in the normal tech tree for that unit. Mongols get full upgrades sieges + bonus from drill. Combined with the mangudai destroying siege, the 2 bonus together are too strong. The civ already counters siege with their unique unit that have a huge bonus (+ they fire faster than normal archers and move way faster) but their siege also counters other siege in game. If mongols come with onager + mangudai, there is no counter to them as they can destroy any bombard cannon with the mangudai, bombard which is a potential counter of onager. If i make onager to counter, they have fast moving onager and unique unit that destroys it quickly so there is no chance. Skirmishers are also countered by their onagers. Now they also have steppe lancer that can snipe anything ignoring the melee pathing due to their range and fully upgraded (lacking 1 armor compensated by hp) hussars that can raid. Isn’t that a powerful set, a little bit too powerful? Basically they can counter everything without being fully countered (except maybe camels but they have champions and pikemans and camels are vulnerable to scorps). They lose in economy late but they have some good early eco to balance and who even goes that late with this deadly combo that can control the whole map (even with generic castle age units).

  2. Another idea would be to remove siege engineer from their tech pool. Basically you have a powerful tech upgrade but lose something equally as important for a siege. For example, byzantine cataphracts can deal trample damage which is a powerful bonus but lose their last attack upgrade in blacksmith and bloodline in the stables. They can’t have full siege techs AND drills.

  3. Other suggestions for discussion.

I just enter to this toppic to say that I knew who was the OP before reading it


You can do nothing really. They can’t be countered.

Guess it means i am famous

You counter Mangudai with Skirmishers, even Turk Skirmishers will do.

Mongols are not even a top 5 civ in DE.

These threads are the reason why I need to listen to Junbi OK? 5 times a day to not overload on rage.


What do Mongols have from minute 15 to minute 50? The standard hunt only gets them some momentum until they play out like a generic civ till you can get Elite Mangudai and pump out decent numbers. Any good civ with castle age advantage can beat Mongols with equal skill.

They lack two pierce and no it’s not compensated by HP


To think people played this game for 20 years without removing this adding that slow this speedup that :man_facepalming:


The hidden bonus damage of Mangudai vs Siege was changed to just Rams during Forgotten I think.

It was restored during African Kingdoms with a mild nerf to their attack delay. Turns out the Siege bonus isn’t really what makes Mangudai good, like how Magyar Huszars are good because they’re a better Hussar, not because they slaughter siege.


I also become tired to really response to the crap he says everytime… It is just clear he lack the knowlegde of the game to make useful suggestions. He probably just lost against Mangudai when he tried to counter the Mangudai with onagers.

In before a ‘Mongols can make scouts and scouts counters Skirms, so Skirms arent a good counter to Mongols’ by RoomOfTheEvil.


I cannot even believe I typed Mangonels, instead of mangudai, though.

The mind wonders to strange places…



I just read Mangudai :slight_smile:


this is just not true, 1v1 Elite Mangudai wins with 70hp left, its not even a cost effective fight. Even FU Elite Skirms lose 1v1 but atleast thats cost effective because the skirms do 9 damage per shot. Let’s not pretend Mangudai aren’t top 5 archer units

tbf, Hussar Mangudai is a trash killer combo

Not for a good reason though. I doubt higly if you’re or not a troll


Directly yes but not with fast moving siege for them or fast attacking rate for them.

They have fully upgradable feudal -> castle age techs and units (light cav, crossbow, knights, pike, long swords man, mangonel, ram, scorp, skirmisher, cav archer all with blood line, thumb ring, ballistics, husbandsry, bodkin, chain mail and barding and leather arrrow)

30% hp seems compensating? lacking two pierce armor isn’t a problem because they have faster attacking CA.

What are you talking about? There were civ balances done during those 20 years.

If it was restored doesn’t that confirm that it was indeed that, that made that cav archer powerful?

I don’t really care if some balance i propose makes them think i am a troll. The balance i propose are only for powerful civs. Here by what all the other have written seems like mongols aren’t one of the most powerful civs in the game.

Fame at any cost. This is the essence of life.

But you are making things sound like they are completely impossible when it isn’t.

And this is why you should become more familiar with the game. Cause you are making completely atrocious accusations towards balance with not enough knowledge to begin with. The tone in each and every thread so far… It is not wrong to not know something, but acting as if you did know everything all the time when you clearly don’t is another matter.


Well he is right. Lots of civs have no chance vs Post Imp Mongols. But that is not a problem, cause its very hard to even get to massed Elite Mangudai, and Drill Siege on top of that.
Thats why Mongols is a powerhouse in a lategame, full Trade scenario.

The thing is, that is their strengths. Early game aggression with hunt bonus, and late game strengths. That is simply not a problem for the game, cause in 1v1 u simply do not get to the point where you have that Deathball most of the time.


yes, thats what generic means except they don’t want to fully tech into any of the castle units aside of mangonels(life expectancy 10 mins) and light cavs (unviable in castle age). Castle age mangudai are bad so Mongols usually play with crossbows into arb and then switch to mangudai

Even with 30% HP Elite Steppe lancers are only 124HP, thats equivalent to castle age bloodlines knight, no way 20hp makes up for 2 less pierce considering how effective bracer and chemistry are

There was no patch between 2001-2013

It was restored because they’re supposed to be powerful after all the investment

they’re powerful if you let them boom and snowball freely in castle age, every civ has a weakness


Just wanna say, castle age mangudai are not bad at all anymore. Theyre quite good actually. Not as good as Castle age camel archer, but no where as bad as they were before theyre frame delay got halfed in WK.

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I know but the castle production is pretty slow, at best you can have two castles in castle age without hurting your eco too much, and then there’s 26 second production meaning you’re never going to use them for serious fights

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Ah fine, then i missunderstood your point before.

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The funny thing is that (in general) you are not wrong in pointing problems. It’s just you don’t know how to nerf.

For exanple, I made this (controversial) balance mod. I nerfed British castle age by making TC a little more expensive. You just want to killthekr only advantage (without considering that they lack thumb ring, thus making their archers worse than generic).

I made drill more expensive and the research for elite mangudai take more time. You just want to kill mangudai.