Suggestions for civilizations balance on certain maps

So after long time I think we can see how some civilizations remain too dominant on certain maps, which overall reduced the fairness on those maps, while also some civs need help because how weak are overall.

Civilizations that are too strong overall

  • Chinese: I think like everyone here knows Chinese are insane on 2k hands, they have answers to everything, wide tech tree, insane UU, great economy and villager lead, despite being soo bad for lower rated players, but still need something.
    Suggestions: Nerf in some way the cheaper technologies discount, or take away something of the tech tree (Heavy Camel, Blast Furnace for example).

  • Gurjaras: A civilization that myself underrated at first but they are currently too strong on many situations, secure food income with garrisoned sheeps, camels that eat cavalry, a lightning moving rider that’s broken vs gunpowder, armored eles that eat Tcs way too effectively, and a UU that becomes close to uncounterable at large groups.
    Suggestions: Reduce the mounted units bonus to 33%, or remove it from armored elephant, -5 HP to Chakram, and Shri Riders speed reduced to something on line with Light Cavalry.

  • Hindustani: Possibly less problematic than the ones above but after rework Hindustani have maybe the best single economic bonus in the game, plus units to counter anything (Imperial Camel vs cavalry, 9 range hand cannoneers vs infantry, and Ghulam vs archers) and even not being bad at trash wars.
    Suggestions: Make Ghulam more expensive (like 40 food) and reuce the pierce damage from 50% to 33% so are less overwhelming vs archers, also make their late game weaker (Remove Champion so they don’t have counter to trash in an effective way, but not sure what you can take away more).

Civilizations that are currently too strong on Arabia

Mayans: I think everyone can agree Mayans bonuses already by itself are just too strong on arabai because their bonuses make them too oppresive to end games in castle age, even in Imperial they have El Dorado.
Suggestions: Reduce longer lasting resources to 10%, Reduce archer discount to 10%/15%/20%, Reduce Elite Plumed Archer range from 5 to 4, Increase El Dorado cost to something higher than now (or even the reduce the HP). Honestly this is what I consider a bare minimum to tone down Mayans power on open maps.
Oh, and also increase the eagle warrior food cost from 20 to 25 or 30.

Civilizations that are currently too strong on Arena

Poles: This civilization is just overtuned on Arena, unmatched boom with Folwarks, with gold from stone mines, extremely strong UU and OP 30g cavalier spam makes them too oppresive on Arena.
Suggestions: Remove Crop Rotation (less collected food per farm for super late game), Obuch PA down from 2 to 1 (Obuch just can’t be straight up better than Champion, and they kill in melee, they need a better weakness vs ranged attacks and some armies like Hussar + arbalest, something that Poles can deal with perfectly with other units), The castle age UT (don’t remember the name well XD) somewhat nerfed or just reworked (Polish cavalier are currently in conflict with Polish Winged Hussar, both now try to use same role).

Turks: People is loud when it comes to just buff them because of Arabia (where they are kinda weaker) but on Arena thanks by all buffs they are now too overpowered on closed maps, Castle age jannissaries just kill everything when Turks drop a castle and you just struggle to counter that except Britons, and competing for relics vs Turks is like an impossible task because of the free Light cavalry upgrade, and in Imperial Age free Hussar with free extra PA leads to just doom lots of archer civilizations in an unfun way, plus Artillery being now too cheap for what it gives.
Suggestions: Castle age jannisary range reduced from 8 to 7 (they still will be great in castle age but now will be possible to hold up them with skirmishers, mangonels and crossbows) in compensation Elite Jannissary accuracy increased to 75% matching hand cannoneer, so they are better in Imperial, Free Light Cavalry and Hussar upgrades replaced with Stable tehcnologies gold cost removed (nerf the insane power on Arena, buffs them on Arabia, you can now tech quickly into heavy camel or cavalier, aldo gold saved from bloodlines) and Artillery wood cost increased form 400w to 600w (the tech is powerful from what it gives).

Civilizations that are currently too strong on Nomad maps
Spanish: Don’t remember the chart where it showed but the civ is currently OP here because of 30% faster working builders (gives like 2 villager advantage at dark age + how strong Conqs are).
Suggestion: Faster building bonus doesn’t apply on Nomad during Dark Age, back in feudal age. Conquistador melee armor reduced from 2 to 1 (Knights and Camels gain one less hit to kill them).
In compensation Spanish need a buff for open maps (where they struggle by a lot to be competent), Berry bushes containing 30% more food, and the Blacksmith bonus extended to Universities are good alternatives.

Civilizations that are currently too strong for team games

Britons: everyone knows here how OP are because of the extra range, team bonus + how easy is to boom with them, other archer civs can’t compete with them (Except Mayans, which are OP).
Suggestions: No more extra range in Imperial, Longbow range buffed by 1 (Crossbows still domain all in castle age, but lose its supremacy in Imperial, means players are now forced to use Longbows as the true long ranged archer unit of Britons), team bonus reduced from 20% to 15% or 10% so no more too strong with other archer civs.

Franks: For the first 20 mins of TGs this civ is just too dominant, two eco bonueses which make them soo perfect and smooth, then a military supremacy in scout wars because of extra HP that early, then they hit castle age sooner and continue to domain with Knights and eco, then they just spam paladins with Chivalry, how are the other paladin civs in position to counter them as pocket? is just unfair and unfun.
Suggestions: Cavalry HP bonus moved to Castle age (They still will have two eco advantages early but no longer the absurd military supremacy in Feudal, kinda like Burgundians) and Chivalry effect changed to something else (Still think Fallen Knights returning 33% of gold cost is a good one, but even if is something different is fine), Frankish paladins are already one of the strongest and they DON’t need to be spammed like nothing.

Now some civs that need help overall:

  • Burmese: Too weak overall, esp vs archers, need Manipur cavalry moved to castle age so they at least get the attack vs archers earlier, Arambai need more buffs because is now very underwhelming, or as last tool, give them leather archer armor.
  • Goths: Diversify their tech tree somehow.
  • Incas: After Eagles get the food cost nerf (which is very likely), Incas need other infantry bonus because right now they are now fallen behind.
  • Malians: After the free gold mining tech they now need something.
  • Bengalis: Incredibly too weak civ overall, need another bonus and Bombard Cannon at least, also some chnage to Ratha.
  • Dravidians: Rebalance Urumi strenght (less broken vs Samurai, Jaguar Warrior) and Bombard Cannon too (which means we will have DOI civs all with Bombard Cannon, which is thematically cool).

PSA: all chart are used with +1600 ELO and +1800 ELO (Just to not cry).


I am sick of nerfs. Just buff weaker civilisations to counterbalance it.

Man that doesn’t do good, civs that are too strong on certain settings deserve nerfs (check Bohemians and Khmer for example), while also buffed on other Maps.

Some good suggestions. I think the desire to nerf every aspect of the Mayan civ is overkill, but we’ve had that conversation elsewhere. Largely agree with the Gurjara and Poles nerfs, but I guess I don’t play arena enough to have a strong opinion on Turks.

Regarding Spanish,

This sounds good, but 3 Uni techs even cost gold, Spanish only get 2, and only really 1 is essential (Chemistry), since Spanish can’t go Xbow and won’t usually go CA. So basically wouldn’t help them be any more competitive where they most need it (early-midgame).

This seems fine, I like it myself, but some may be opposed to anything that could potentially get Spanish into Conqs faster, even with an armor nerf.

I agree with this in principle in a lot of cases, as I like the idea of “bringing civs up” more than nerfing bonuses that make civs fun and Unique, but a handful of civs clearly have too much going for them and need at least a couple targeted nerfs.


All technologies 10%/15%/20% cheaper in Feudal/Castle/Imperial age → All technologies excluding unit upgrades are 15% cheaper.

All resource lasts 15% longer → All resource except food lasts 15% longer.

Agree with these 2. No more nerfs is needed.

Agree. Not sure about rest of your suggestions.

Forager works 15% faster bonus is removed.

New civ bonus - Forager works 25% faster.

Wood discount applies to farms again.

I think FE wanted Franks to have good eco at the first 10 mins of the game, the problem is that they also have a military bonus to be oppresive, remove that and then are fine.

As for Malians I think the wood discount on farms won’t be enough, 9 wood per farm, compare that to 36 wood that Teutonic Farms get.

Which I did.

This will be a good start. Or we can improve the bonus to 20% excluding farms similar to Koreans.

Given the fact that Spanish is so OP in nomad in terms of statistics, the building bonus in dark age should be removed

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I already explained that here.

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If you just made it not work until the first TC is up, they would be fine.


Not sure whether current aoe2 have similar behaviour bonus that only work on the second something. Most likely they will just remove the whole bonus in dark age but I think your idea fit better

Well we have changed various other bonuses to only apply in certain circumstances.
Chinese don’t start with extra vills until TC built, Lithuanians don’t get their food bonus in EW, etc.


Sound pretty promising. They can just hardcode the first TC to be build faster in dark age

Why do you want to compare those bonuses in the first place? Cheaper farms would not be the only eco bonus for Malians…

hes showing that it’s not a huge buff. and frankly that’s fine, because malians don’t need much.

Thanks to this, Ethiopians don’t have the +100 food and +100 gold bonus anymore in EW

This is actually interesting Graph.
it’s the cross-comparison of open and closed maps of 1600+ games, while y is the closed and x is the open axis.

As we can see some civs can clearly only shine on open while others only shine on closed maps. Interestingly there are only a very few civs that are good or bad in both categories.

Graphic from


And Aztecs also don’t get the 50 Gold at start on Empire Wars games.

Yes, but that is a Dark Age bonus, not a Feudal Age bonus

Exactly. That’s what I was thinking as well.