Tarascans, Zapotecs, Chimu, Muisca and Polynesians - 5 First Nations Civs and Map

Ahoi,

I’ve been thinking of how I would make these 5 new civilizations, and thought it would be more interesting if I created a map where you could play as any one of them, rather than just an idea dump. All of the bonuses/techs/units of the new civs are created by triggers, by nullifying the bonuses of the host civ, changing units//techs, and adding new bonuses (no modding involved).*
(See Footnote)

Note that some units are different in this ideation. For example, Slingers are a semi-regional native unit that has a different bonus for each civ (only Inca slingers have an anti-infantry bonus), and Xolotl warriors are basically faster moving cavaliers.

Regarding the inevitable balance discussion:

While I originally set out to make these civs as balanced as possible, I ultimately decided to go all-in on “flavor” and uniqueness in a way that I probably wouldn’t have if I were actually a dev designing these civs. The temptation to try new things and make use of editor resources was too great to resist, and since I’m offering more than theoretical civs on paper, I decided to be more bold in their design. So think of this more as radical exploratory concepts for these civs, that are likely to be the basis of future scenarios/campaigns I may make with them, rather than tame, safe civs that are fully optimized for balance in standard play. Even so, I think something akin to these designs, toned down, could be balanced for standard play, and I would like to see some of these bonuses used in future civs. So feel free to comment on the civs, including balance generally (preferably after you have tried it), but understand that excessive zealotry in the name of balance will be ignored as missing the point of this ideation. There are areas where I’m specifically looking for balance suggestions, but these mainly have to do with whether units/techs are useful and reasonably priced for what they offer (for example, whether the Nhu’ulhe Warrior is useful enough in both modes, or whether the Guecha is well priced for its stats.)

_

Anyway, here are the civs and their bonuses:

Tarascans (Purépecha)
Defensive/Archer Civ
Tarascans

-Fish and fish traps last 40% longer.
-Mills can garrison (10) villagers.
-Farms built around mills provide 10 gold once constructed.
-Archer line arrows 25% faster in Feudal/Castle, 50% faster in Imperial Age. Archer line has lower frame delay (8/8/12) and +1 Melee Armor per Age.
-Spear wielding units gain +0.25 Range per Age.
-Thumb ring and ballistics affect scorpions (fire 17% faster), scorpion bolts move (50%) faster.
-Repairers work 20% faster.

Team Bonus: Trade units +10 HP, +2/3 armor, and +5% speed.

Unique Techs:
Yacatas

-Yácatas (350 S 350 G): Towers take up 2 tiles, Defensive buildings gain +1 range, +3/3 armor +6 building armor, and fire scorpion bolts. Castles gain +3 vs Rams, Archers gain +2 vs. Rams and Trebuchets.

-Castilian Pact (600 G). Allows research of BBT tech, Cannon Galleon, Bombard Cannon, Stables, and Cav-adjacent techs (armor, bloodlines, husbandry). Even with Stables, Tarascans can only train the Xolotl Warrior.

Unique Units:
-Tiamu Lancer: Armored Spearman that is trained from the barracks (But requires a Castle). Immune to bonus damage. (No anti-cav bonus)

Tiamu Stats

HP:60 Speed: 1.1 Attack: 10 Armor: 2/3 Bonus: +2 Vs Eagles, +1 Vs Buildings
40 F 40 G
Elite Tiamu Lancer: (Upgrade 600 F 400 G)
HP: 75 Speed: 1.1 Attack: 12 Armor: 3/4 Bonus: +2 Vs Eagles, +1 Vs Buildings

-Otomi Knight: Fast infantry with bonus against Eagles and Cavalry. Available at Castle in Imperial Age.
Stats:

Otomi Knight Stats

HP:70 Speed: 1.325 Attack: 11 Armor: 3/0 Bonus: +10 Vs Eagles, +22 vs Cavalry
60 F 35 G

Missing Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Squires, Supplies, Eagle/Elite Eagle Warrior, Two-Handed Swordsman, Champion, Halberdier, Siege Ram, Siege Onager, Heavy Demo, Fast Fire Ship, Sappers, Atonement, Sanctity, Heresy, Stone Shaft Mining, Two Man Saw.

Chimu:
Infantry/Siege Civ
Chimu

-Blacksmith available in Dark Age, blacksmith technologies available 1 age earlier.
-Blacksmiths and Mining Camps can garrison villagers.
-Siege units destroy armor, rams 2x Garrison Capacity and LoS.
-Farms are 2x2 size.
-Conscription affects Docks and Siege Workshops.
-Relics generate Stone at half the rate of gold (15/min)
-Eagle Warriors move and attack 5% faster per Age.
-Slinger Bonus: +1 Attack.

Unique Technologies:
Mountain Warfare

-Mountain Warfare: Slingers and Ciequiches destroy armor, units have no damage penalty when fighting uphill, deal +30% when fighting downhill (for 55% total bonus - still take extra damage from uphill enemies). Mangonel line Secondary Projectiles doubled. (250 F 450 G)
-Ciudadelas: All buildings mitigate 33% of bonus damage. Allows construction of Stonecast Towers. (800G 400 S)

Unique Unit:
Ciequich: Axe throwing infantry with poor accuracy but high attack that deals full damage to unintended targets.

Ciequich Stats

HP 60 AT 13, +3 vs Cav 2/2 Armor 6 Range
Elite (1000 F 600 G)
HP 70 AT 15 +4 vs Cav 3/3 Armor 6 Range
Base Speed 0.875, Train Time 10 Seconds

Missing Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Arbalester, Thumb Ring, Halberdier, Heated Shot, Treadmill Crane, Hoardings, Atonement, Herbal Medicine, Heresy, Faith, Illumination, Block Printing, Two-Man Saw, Banking.

Muisca
Defensive Civ:
Muisca

-Stone lasts 25% longer. Stone Mining Free.
-Start with a Zipa, an extra, (0 pop) non-combatant scout unit. While alive, this unit generates 5/15/30/40 gold/min in Feudal/Castle/Imp. (Equivalent to 1.33 relics in Imp)
-Monastery replaced with Sun Temple, which costs stone and fires spears.
-Houses replaced with Lodges, which cost 70 wood and provide 15 population room.
-All buildings can garrison infantry and archers. Infantry fire arrows from Towers, Sun Temples, Castles and Town Centers.
-Spearmen and Skirmishers +3/6/10 HP and +33/66/100% to all attack types in Feudal/Castle/Imp
-Eagle Warriors +1 Melee armor and +1 Eagle Armor/Age
-Conscription is triply effective for counter units (buildings work 100% faster when making them).
-Slinger Bonus: Slingers fire more slowly (5 S RT), but have added range and pierce armor (+2), area damage (1), anti-building damage (+7) , and can attack ground.
-(Most) Destroyed buildings spawn a military Unit. [Towers and Archery range - Archer line - Castle - UU, Lodge, Blacksmith, Mill - Spearman, Barracks - Swordsman - Sun Temple, University - Monk, Siege Workshop - Scorpion, Docks - Canoe, Town Center - Slinger and 3 Eagles]

TB: Trade units generate 5% stone.

Unique Technologies:

-Muzo Emeralds: Stone mines provide 120% additional gold, Trade units generate 10% more gold. 150 W 150 G
-Poisoned Lances: All spear-wielding units (Spearmen, Skirmishers, Eagles, and Guecha Warriors) gain a charge attack (every 1st and 5th attack deals about 2x damage). 800 W 800 G

Unique Unit:
Guecha Warrior: Fighter that throws spears that deal melee damage. Has a small bonus against cavalry and siege, and minimum range. Benefits from both infantry and archer upgrades (including thumb ring, ballistics, and chemistry).

Guecha Warrior Stats

HP:50 Speed: 1.15 Attack: 3 Armor: 0/0 Range: 4 Bonus: +2 Vs Siege and Cavalry
60 W 60 G
Elite: (Cost 750 F 350 G)
HP:55 Speed: 1.15 Attack: 4 Armor: 1/0 Range: 5 Bonus: +3 Vs Siege and Cavalry
60 W 60 G

Missing Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Arbalester, Elite Skirmisher, Pikeman/Halberdier, Elite Eagle Warrior, Arson, Capped Ram, Siege Ram, Onager, Siege Onager, Scorpion/Heavy Scorpion, Siege Engineers, Stone Shaft Mining.

Zapotecs
Archer Civilization
Zapotecs

-Hunt, Berries, and farms last last 20% longer
-Archer armor upgrades apply to non-siege land military units.
-No Barracks or Militia line, but can Build House of Darts (Archery Range) in Dark Age (200 Wood). Trains both Infantry and Archer units.
-Squires and Arson affect all House of Darts units (Infantry + Archer Units)
-Eagle line gold cost replaced with food, available in Dark Age.
-Herbal Medicine upgrades Houses to Temazcales, which heal villagers within 6 tiles. Also increases monk healing rate by 50%, and gives infantry and archers regeneration (8 HP/minute).
-Slinger Bonus: Slingers attack 25% faster and deal +5 bonus damage to Rams.
-Can build Artisan Workshops in Imperial Age (generate gold and stone).
-Can build Stables after converting an enemy Stable. (Only trains Xolotl warriors)

Unique Technologies:

-Deerskin Codices: All technologies (including Imperial Age) are 25% cheaper and research 25% faster. (300 W 300 G)

-Ollamaliztli: Eagle Warriors, Nhu’ulhe Warriors, and Bejw Raiders gain +1 Melee armor, +2 Line of sight, +2 attack vs. Cavalry, and +25% Movement and Training Speed. (550 G 350 S)

Unique Units:
-Nhu’ulhe Warrior Female infantry that can switch between spear and bow.

Nhu'ulhe Warrior Stats:

Melee: 55 HP, 2/2 armor, 11 AT, +2 vs eagles and cav Elite 65 HP, 3/2 Armor, 13 AT, +4 vs eagles and cav.

Ranged: 55 HP 0/1 armor, 5 attack (no bonus). Elite 65 HP, 0/1 armor, 6 attack
50 F 50 G 20 Sec Train Time.
All Forms 0.9 Base Speed
Upgrade to Elite: 850 F 500 G

Bejw Raider: Infantry with extremely fast attack, and bonus against Buildings and Eagle Warriors. Available in Imperial Age.

Bejw Raider Stats

70 HP, 1/3 armor, 5 AT. 1.2 Reload Time, 1.0 Base Speed. (45 F 35 G)

Artisan Workshop: Generates 40 G, 14 S/minute (Cost: 150 Gold 150 Stone, 10 Pop) 100 Sec Build time.
(For reference - Feitoria generates 96 F 42 W 60 G 18 S/minute (Cost 250 Gold 250 Stone, 20 Pop) 120 Sec Build time.

Missing Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Militia Line, Supplies, Elite Eagle Warrior, Infantry Armor Techs, Siege Ram, Heavy Demo Ship, Galleon, Architecture, Sappers, Fortified Wall, Faith, Heresy, Guilds, Stone Shaft Mining, Crop Rotation

Polynesians:
Naval and Infantry Civilization
Polynesians

-Trees last 33% longer, lumberjacks fell trees in one strike.
-All units +11%/22%/33% Hit Points in Feudal/Castle/Imperial
-Infantry immune to armor reducing/ignoring attacks and bonus damage.
-Free Siege engineers and Sappers in Imperial.
-Scorpions move 10% faster, frame delay lowered, and no minimum range.
-Mill upgrades apply doubly to fish traps.
-Gillnets 40% cheaper, available in feudal, and half of its effects apply to fishermen (work 12.5% faster)
-Villagers can garrison in docks.

Team Bonus: Ships +2 LOS, Militia line and unique infantry +1 vs cavalry and eagles.

Unique Technologies:
Seafaring

Seafaring: All ships gain +15% speed and +2 Line of Sight, Transport ships carry +10. (Enables construction of Wa’a Kaulua in Imperial) (225 W 225 F)

Kahuna Nui: Upgrades Monks to Kahunas, which have 10 range, +10% speed, heal 80% faster at 10 range, and take only 1/3 bonus damage. Makes Kahunas, Maori Warriors, and Wa’a Kauluas immune to conversion.

Unique Units:
Maori Warrior: Infantry with high hit points and attack, above average speed and attack rate, and low armor.

Maori Warrior Stats

HP:88 (with Polynesian HP bonus) Speed: 1.15 Attack: 14 Bonus: +2 vs. Eagles Armor: 0/2 Attack Rate 1.9
75F F 25 G
Elite:
HP:117 Speed: 1.15 Attack: 17 Bonus: +2 vs. Eagles Armor: 0/2 Attack Rate 1.9
75F F 25 G

Wa’a Kaulua: Long range ship that fires stones, effective for coastal bombardment.

Wa'a Kaulua Stats

HP:156 Speed: 1.3 Attack: 36 Range: 10 Bonus: +120 vs. Buildings: Attack Rate 6.9
120 W 120 G

Missing Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Siege Onager, Blast Furnace, Plate Mail Armor, Chain Mail Armor, Ring Archor Armor, Fortified Wall, Treadmill Crane, Hoardings, Architecture, Arrowslits, Careening.

Anyway, to play as any one of the civs, just set your player #/Color to 1 Polynesians (Malay) 2 Tarascans (Aztecs) 3 Muisca (Incas) 4 Chimu (Incas) or 5 Zapotecs (Aztecs). For example, to Play as Muisca, set your player color to Green (#3) and civ to Incas, and change the civ/color of the previously green player to Blue (#1) and Malay. You can change the map if you want (generate a new one), but the Zipa and Polynesian scout will have to be placed manually. Do not change the pop limit or the starting age. Also be advised that the AI of non-player new civs will research UTs but not make UUs and generally will not play nearly to their full strength. Any future campaigns/scenarios will optimize these civs for use by the AI, but currently they are only optimized for player use. Here is the scenario file:

First Nations Expansion.aoe2scenario (265.8 KB)

Once you’ve looked at, and hopefully tested the civs, here’s a poll which might influence how I focus design efforts in the future. If not applicable, obviously don’t answer. Also, feel free to report bugs, but most of them will probably be on the Devs side so there’s nothing I can do about those.

  • Which of these Civs would you most like to play as in Future Scenarios/Campaigns?
  • Tarascans
  • Chimu
  • Muisca
  • Zapotecs
  • Polynesians

0 voters

Other than that, feel free to leave questions, comments, threats, existential rants, cries for help, confessions of love, suggestions, etc.

**

Footnote: Broken Editor Units

Also note that since the devs generally put minimal effort into the Editor, none of the triggers I created that modify any unit’s attack or armor work anymore (as of the 6/29/22 “update”), so most UUs and some generic units will have different attack/armor values than what is shown in this thread. I was going to hold off on releasing this until this was fixed, but I have no reason to expect that it will be done in a timely manner, or that the next “update” won’t follow the pattern of the last 2, and create more problems than it solves.

5 Likes

In aoe2 civilizations don’t have 7 bonuses.

1 Like

Teutons have 6 bohemians 5 already so just a matter of time.

4 Likes

My problem is that not even one of these civs feels like it belongs. Not one civ here looks like it has a standard set of 3 bonuses. One lacks barracks and that’s treated like an advantage in a drush heavy meta. Maybe I’m old fashioned but these just feel a bit too over the top/overcompensative. I know new civs don’t need to be new player friendly but there should be some level of standardization.

1 Like

I don’t think an average of 3 is a great benchmark personally, I think it’s fine for the average to be 4-5 instead. I think 7 is excessive currently though, but 6 might be ok.

2 Likes

Everything just feels a little too loaded. Like look at Britons. They have the sheep bonus they archer bonus and TC bonus. 3 bonuses and it’s strong as is.

Look at Tatars. 4 bonuses and very understandable.

All of these just feel a bit… like they’re overcompensating for the sake of being so far out there in fear of being seen as boring if not deviating too far from the standard.

Even New civs. You look at the Dravidians and they have 4 bonuses. Easy to follow. So don’t tell me it’s a new tendency/trend.

It just would seem hard to follow since there’s so much changed like a civ without militia and even a civ without eagle warrior upgrade (which sounds shocking to hear from me) but I just think there’s too many changes and worse cramming 5 civs into one post makes it even harder to follow the main direction of it all.

2 Likes

On the one hand of course, you’re right. I had mentioned that these were intentionally radical and exploratory, and would have to be toned down for standard play. On the other hand, I had really hoped that our analysis could move beyond hyperfixating on that obvious but mundane aspect (which I already addressed in the OP). I think I’ve been fairly clear that this is not quite a standard design thread, so I’ll appreciate responses that take that into consideration.

I tend to agree, although I don’t see any need to cap it at 6. Think about Teutons - not only do they have 6 bonuses, they also have a wide-open tech tree that includes gunpowder and cavalry. Considering that these are all new world civs that generally don’t have either, I think having more than 6 bonuses can be appropriate, in limited cases. Otherwise you may fall into the trap, as a lot of civ designers do, of creating New World civs that fall within the well-worn trope of existing Meso civs (Eco Bonus + Military Bonus + Skirm and Eagle UTs). In any case, getting hung up on the number of civ bonuses, rather than the quality/flavor/effectiveness of those bonuses (especially in this ideation) seems like a limiting belief to me, rather than an actual good design principle. You could probably make a civ with only 1 bonus that’s still good, and you could probably make a civ with 8 that’s still intuitive.

Who said it was supposed to be a pure advantage? You’ll find that a lot of these bonuses involve tradeoffs, rather than pure superiority at every stage. This one for example, is particularly weak in Dark Age, but it strong in Feudal and afterwards due to its flexibility.

Your analysis is tainted by a fundamental misjudgment of my motives. I can offer several reasons why these civs have so many unique attributes, and none of them have to do with “being afraid of being boring”:

  1. To push the envelope:. In my opinion, a good designer should push the boundaries at some point (even if its only in the exploratory stage, as this ideation is). Otherwise you just get a remix of what’s already been seen and done. Most great breakthroughs in art, science, and other creative endeavors are found at the edge of possibility, not within the comfortable safe space of what has already been done before. I get what people mean when they say something is “not in the spirit of the game,” but the flip side is that very many of the the things that are now in the game would have been considered “too much” before they were introduced and normalized. This 20+ year old game is still played because it evolved, not because it held stubbornly to an initial limited vision.

  2. To Test and Explore: In this thread I’m offering an opportunity that nobody with their civ craft threads does - the chance to actually try the civ (against other new civs and standard civs) and get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses, rather than judging them solely upon abstraction and how they would theoretically play out. There are a lot of potentially good future civ bonuses/changes that will not be well understood when they only exist as words in a thread. It’s hard to get a feel for how something like the Tarascan bonus of faster arrows/lower frame delay is without actually trying it, to say nothing of concepts that are not well known outside the modding/design community.

  3. To Refine: Ultimately I will clip some of these bonuses for the final design of these civs, but testing them all together is an extremely comprehensive way to determine their synergies and weaknesses. Creating this ideation as I have is a much more robust way of determining which bonuses are essential to a civ’s identity (and which can be scrapped) than armchair analysis of purely theoretical ideas.

  4. To give small bonuses a chance: If you have a limiting belief like “civs should only have 3 bonuses,” you’re going to leave an enormous number of good-but-low-powered bonuses on the table, because you’re going to discard a lot of bonuses that would be good combined with several others, but are too weak to make up the civ-defining 3. In the long term this will be a severe limitation to what you can do with civs, all in the name of dogmatic devotion to an arbitrary standard of low bonuses. And let’s be frank (pun intended), a majority of the very strong civ bonuses (that make a civ strong with a low number of bonuses) have already been taken.

That’s understandable. Again, this is not a standard civ design thread, and the reason for them all being in this thread is that they are all in a playable scenario, so it makes sense to have them here. But I get that it’s kind of a large flood of information, and individual civ threads might be more productive for more particular discussion. I will probably break these into individual design threads after some testing and refinement, and I welcome everyone to be a part of that testing process.

1 Like

Do you have something against other civ crafters? I find you have a tendency to try and shoot them down, like they can’t have their own designs because it threatens the niche you’re trying to create for yourself. Would you say that’s a somewhat reasonable assumption?

No. The thing is this one feels a little over the top.

Let’s look at the first civ on the list;

  • Fish and fish traps last 40% longer.
    -Mills can garrison (10) villagers.
    -Farms built around mills provide 10 gold once constructed.
    -Archer line arrows 25% faster in Feudal/Castle, 50% faster in Imperial Age. Archer line has lower frame delay (8/8/12) and +1 Melee Armor per Age.
    -Spear wielding units gain +0.25 Range per Age.
    -Thumb ring and ballistics affect scorpions (fire 17% faster), scorpion bolts move (50%) faster.
    -Repairers work 20% faster.

This is certainly a lot and none of these bonuses feel minor. Repairs faster? That’s a cool bonus. Mill garrison is an excellent escape tool especially with longer ranged spears mixed with archers harder to micro dance with. Again I almost wish maybe a few of these bonuses were focused on and exemplified to define a civ because finding civ with bonuses for 3 different military unit types is pretty rare.

All in all it feels unwieldy to read. Has nothing to do with me or my ego.

I also feel like some of the bonuses are awkward. How do you gauge 1/4 a range? Can it show on a unit stat screen? 0+1 will show fine but fraction/decimals tend to round and truncate so the bonus range would likely just be either 0 or 1 depending on how it rounds.

The Team Bonus is unlike most for this civ too. Usually team bonuses have 1 effect. 5% faster trade is decent a team bonus on its own (especially if stacked with Spanish)

Everything just feels loaded. And yet the Mill garrison would feel more complete if it was all dropsites.

Or this UT

-Yácatas (350 S 350 G): Towers take up 2 tiles, Defensive buildings gain +1 range, +3/3 armor +6 building armor, and fire scorpion bolts. Castles gain +3 vs Rams, Archers gain +2 vs. Rams and Trebuchets.

That’s a lot of effects going all at once. Any one of those effects is good (except the tower size increasing can be outright game crashing possibly if you stacked towers next to each other. Like if the bonus was just buildings/archers +4 vs rams it would actually be pretty decent, simple easy to understand. (better than Burning Oil too.)

1 Like

Teutons get a pass because their bonuses beyond the eco bonus are all building towards three themes

Amd even Teutons I think should be simplified to 5 by merging the tower and the town center bonus. 5 civ bonuses should also not be that common, they are usually not necessary

I like your idea of using mediocre bonuses (and I will admit that I usually attemp that it doesnt occur to me

Now I will try to give you some feedback and recomendation for your civ designs

Indeed, it is over the top for now.

Experience. Stuff like this is exactly what I’m referring to when I say that trying something out in the editor gives you a far better understanding of how it works than attempts at analysis without experimentation. Fractional range does work, even if it doesn’t display below 1 (in that sense it’s a hidden but important stat like attack rate). This bonus basically means you’ll always get the first hit in vs. enemy melee units, and you can stack a few more units to attack a single enemy (although not quite to the degree that a Kamayuk can).

That’s a fair critique. If I were to rework the Tarascans, I might just remove the spear and possibly the repair bonus. Then all their bonuses would have to do with ranged units or mills/fish.

While I understand where this critique is coming from, I place very low value on whether or not my civs entirely fit the pattern that is the norm for other civs. I suppose where many people might ask “why break the mold?” I would just ask why not. The speed increase is synergistic with the higher armor, making it harder to raid trade, but the economic aspect of it easily the weakest of the trade-applicable TBs.

I haven’t had a crash in my tests with this. But I agree that this tech is overpacked with features. Mainly I wanted to try a bunch of things at once and see which were most impactful. Most likely I will only keep the scorpion bolts and the ram bonus for the final version.

Fair, and under that standard, 5-6 bonus civs should also be viable if they focus on 2-3 themes. I do want to reemphasize my earlier contention that I think an above average number of bonuses should be considered for civs with very limited tech trees, e.g. new American civs with no cav/gunpowder. This is especially true if you don’t want all American civs to have nearly the same tech trees (Arb/Siege Ram/EEW/Eagle UT). Having more bonuses for such a civ gives you the freedom to make them strong with limited unit availability, but not follow the well-worn path of Aztecs/Mayans. A fair number of my bonuses exist mainly to offset tech deficiencies (e.g. Zapotec trash eagles, Polynesian HP bonus and Ship UU, Muisca Skirm/Spear bonus).

Also, I’m about to make a toned-down thread for Muisca, so balance feedback for them should go there.

Are you high???

2xyU

It should be hi how are you not how high are you.

5 Likes

Is that a yes or a no? Because these balancing decision are actually insane. FU Arbalest with 50% faster attacks, generating Stone from trade, +33% HP on all units,
Muzo Emeralds, and Towers become 2x2 and shooting scorpion bolts. If you are trolling us you have succeeded.

Suggestions like that doesn’t justify accusing someone of being on mind altering substances.

I think you need to read it again. Maybe I understood it wrong, but it looks to me like the arrows move 50% faster, not the unit fires faster.

2 Likes

I agree with your interpretation, Still make them very hard to micro against at any level.

¿Por qué no los dos?

I’ll Imma say is, get your own, cause I’m not sharing.

What if I am trolling? In this context of me making a scenario with some unusual civ bonuses, I’m not really sure what that would even mean, or what difference it would make. Also, with respect, I think you may have trolled yourself at least partly in terms of your reading comprehension, at least in your perusal of this thread.

Arrows are faster.

A negligible amount, hardly a game changer.

In a civ that misses most armor upgrades.

I see nothing inherently problematic about this, care to elaborate?

See above.

See above. I get that aesthetically this might seem a little amateurish, but beyond that I don’t find it problematic, and it’s almost certainly not as powerful as you’d think.

You seem extremely…conservative is the nicest word I can think of in terms of the type of bonuses you would ever accept, which is fine, but it makes me wonder why you’d even bother to read (skim, apparently) a civ design thread.

I’m not sure what you meant it With Muzo Emerald but I interpret that as the poles bonus set to 120% percent maybe you meant something else but the +10% gold from trade carts is more than worth it. And about the Stone generation it is an intentional design Chose that the Feitoria requires 20 population and cost 250S and only generate 18S per minute. You would give this ability to trade carts for free as a team bonus. 15 Trade carts can easily outpaces a Feitoria making it redundant. Even with 5% the ability to generate unlimited stone is game breaking.

Correct. Hits later + have to pay for is viable in concept, even if I have to tweak the numbers to walk the fine line between being OP, and still being viable after you’ve mined enough stone for a Castle. I don’t see the concept as being broken outside of Megarandom or some map with stupid tons of stone, but that’s not really worth balancing around. Also, just giving them +10% trade is just a worse Sultans, which gives +10% to all gold income, including trade.

I’d have to run the numbers on this, but you may be right, this is actually good feedback. Although Feitorias aren’t that great in TGs anyway, I probably wouldn’t want this bonus to outpace the Feitoria stone generation per pop of trade carts. I might lower the percentage to 1 or 2, depending on tests, or just come up with a new bonus.

Also, in case you missed the earlier discussion, these civs are intentionally radical/exploratory and not intended to be added to the game as is. For the toned down versions that, while perhaps not fully balanced in this iteration, but may be within punching range of being balanced/reasonable see the individual threads that only cover 1 civ each.

Edit: I ran the numbers on trade corner to corner on a large map, 20 trade carts with 5% stone give 120 stone in 5 minutes. While this seems pretty low impact compared to the 2454 gold generated, it is more than 1 Feitoria 90 Stone /5 Min. I think if lower this to 1%, (24 Stone in 5 min with 20 carts) it’ll be reasonable, if anything underpowered relative to the stone you can buy from trade gold. Even if you’re trademaxing with 50 carts, this is only 60 Stone in 5 min, or a free tower every 10-11 min. If this bonus makes the cut to the actual design thread, it’ll probably be at 1 or 1.5%