I play as Tatars mainly and I find that counter an Halb + SK + Rams - worse if it´s SR - it’s a very cost ineffective situation, because the unit that solve that is the Champion, but Tatars have only one infantry armor upgrade and no Champ so they don’t worth the cost and Halb kill cav and SK kills CA and HC, plus SR are very resistant to normal Onager.
As Tatars are intended to be a cav civ, it’s reasonable that they have a weak infantry (the worst in the game), so eneable the Siege Onager will help to counter this combo
No they do not.
Tatars have HCA with Free Thumb Ring and Free Parthian Tactics, to handle Halbs, and Elite Steppe Lancers to handle Siege Onagers.
Not every civs has the best counters to everything.
HCA is countered by SK and I didn’t said that I have a problem with SO, the problem is SR+Halb+SK
What is SK?
If it is Skirmishers, then Tatars have Elite Skirms of their own with Free Thumb Ring + Hussars with Silk Armour, so they do not need Siege Onagers at all
That free upgrades doesn’t mean that much in late game to be honest, Hussars get killed by Halb before reach the Siege Rams, so train SK will not solve a ram inside your town
Hussars + Heavy Cav Archer demolish Halb + Skirm + Ram.
You also already have Onagers, which can destroy Halbs in one shot.
The problem with this is cost effectiveness, if you do that the SK will get a lot of your expensive HCA and Halb doesn’t get killed by an Onager AOE shot, so you are gold counter trash and relative cheap rams, and Hussars get killed before reaching the ram
No it won’t, not if you play well.
Skirms cannot catch up to HCA, and HCA can just snipe Halbs and go back to heal.
Castles will murder a lot of skirmns too, and even basic Mangonels can counter Skirms + Halbs.
So you have all the day to heal the HCA and watch how the SRs destroy your city?
I’m talking about a inmediate response to SR with decent cost effectiveness, champions are the logical response.
The focus here are SR not the trash units, onagers are expensive and SR resist a lot of their shots.
And I really don’t think that add this upgrade will affect too much, as Tatars right now have a low winrate
Hussars counter Siege rams. Hussar + Heavy Cav Archer counter Halbs + Elite Skirms + Siege Rams, and there honestly is nothing else to it.
Just because you cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done.
Plenty of civs with no Hussar or Siege Onager, that counter Halbs + ESkirms + SR, like Mayans.
Hussars counter Siege rams: weak attack and weak if halb are near
Hussar + Heavy Cav Archer counter Halbs + Elite Skirms + Siege Ram: again, it’s not cost efficient
Plenty of civs with no Hussar or Siege Onager, that counter Halbs + ESkirms + SR, like Mayans: Mayans have Plate armor, Tatars have only scale armor
Just because you cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done: I never said that I can’t or is not possible, that’s your imagination, I said, again, is not cost efficient.
It’s second time that you argument against me, so focus on the balance changes, not in me.
Just use Onagers, they counter that entire unit combe, you do not need Siege Onager by any measure.
I use onagers a lot for this, but lacking decent infantry is a heavy outcome for Tatars.
I ask you, why not eneable Siege Onagers? what will be the problem if it’s related to compensate the worst inf civ
Shouldn’t onagers do the trick still? If you think Tatars are bad against this match up, try Huns
The Onagers are the best solution right now, but it’s an ok solution, especially at trash wars where gold scarce and 135 for a onager and halb with 1PA doesn’t help much, not mention the 2HS with 2PA vs Skirms, so you can’t rely on meatshield the buildings for the SR… the idea is try to figurate to find a better balance instead of changing the civ. Maybe chain armor will help but that will affect the cav civ role.
Why not eneable it? will tatars be OP?
Tatars are supposed to just go full Cavalry, all the time.
They get 2 Cav Archer upgrades for free, have a great UT that affect Trash, a Castle Age Cavalier equivalent, and longer ranged Trebs.
Yes, it would make it OP to give them good Infantry.
Tatars are supposed to just go full Cavalry, all the time: that’s the problem if the player mass Halbs + Rams and back up with Skirm for anti Halb units, and Tatars lack an antitrash unit like a solid militia line. One guy in other thread talk about making the SL stronger to Halb, that could be other solution and justify their cost.
Yes, it would make it OP to give them good Infantry: Agreed, I doesn’t like much the chain mail patch as an alternative to Siege Onager for role issues.
They have better Hussars and decent Skirms, they cannot have everything.
Tatars also have Heavy Camels, Cavaliers, better Cavaliers from the Castle, Elite Steppe Lancers, and 2 free Archery Range upgrades, paired up with long range Trebs.
Most civs have half this amount of strong units.
They have better Hussars and decent Skirms, they cannot have everything: Of course not, but remember that they have the worst inf of all the game, and that feudal scale armor are a big outcome in trash wars with very frail Halb line.
And about facts, right now they have one of the longest play time civ with 50:15 min average and one of the lowest win rate: 46,95%, that means that they get to trash wars and tend to have less wins.
So, in order to don’t touch their inf, I think add SO will help or the SL anti halb solution could work
They have Halbs, Turks only have Spearmen, so no, not the worst in the game.
In fact, Halberdier is a much better unit than Champion, as Champion is almost never used, but Halbs almost always are.
That is not low at all. 38% is low, 46% is balanced.