Teutons changes +ideas

To give myself credit, I’ve been playing this game since I’ve been 5, for 16 years now. I’m normally 1250-1300 elo currently.

Look, the Teutons new bonus is uninteresting. I feel like extra armor has already been done, with the malians pierce armor and the bulgarian bagains tech. Not to mention now they have the best paladins in the game and not in a good way, in a rage quit unbeatable way. If I’m playing a melee oriented civ, I can’t beat teuton paladins. Teutons loose their identity as a infantry civ when everyone fast castles into knights then transitions into paladins.

When I think of Teutons, I think of the word “Heavy”. slow but powerful. I would say that the bulgarians and slavs are the cousins to this play. Infantry, Heavy cav with siege and possible monks. But Slavs and Bulgarians are fun because of their UU that replaces the paladin. Switches up the norm and makes the game interesting. The teutons don’t have a UU heavy cav, they have the paladin, which is FINE, don’t get me wrong.

So balance changes, the paladin with +2 armor is op, it really is. I have lost multiple games I shouldve won because I went melee units. Even Heavy Camels struggle with teuton pals. What I want is a unique bonus that no other civ gets. That’s it. I don’t understand why something else wasn’t tried instead of extra armor, because that feels so uninspired.

Teutons are a slow civ, so having something to balance out the early game that is unique is what I want, I don’t even care about the teutonic knight at this point. I’m not paying twice the cost of a champion for a unit that is slower.

Teutons were crusader mercenary people. The representation of mercenaries would make the most sense from a historical and gameplay perspective.

-each military building built comes garrisoned with a mercenary
-each friendly military building destroyed spawns a mercenary.
-the first unit created from a military building is free.
-the first military unit of that line created is free. 1 free militia, 1 Free ram, 1 free knight, etc.
-Supplies affects all infantry.
-for every 10 units killed, spawn a mercenary
for every 10 units lost, spawn a mercenary.
-Barracks cost -75 wood
-Barracks can garrison infantry, infantry garrisoned fire arrows.
-friendly units killed return 5% cost
-Military Buildings built faster
-UU Militia line replacement, Teuton mercenary
Infantry regenerate, increased by each monk tech.
-Monasteries available to build in feudal age( no monk of course)
-Forging, iron casting gives plus 1 armor to infantry
-1st infantry armor upgrade free
-armor upgrades cost -50%

Currently, infantry have no bonus until castle age. Teutons are the weakest in feudal when they are transitioning into farms and have not yet seen the help of their farm bonus. The Teutons need a infantry bonus, something that affects ALL infantry so the Teutonic knight might have a place. The best bonuses are in my opinion:

Infantry armor upgrades free-
instant scale to all ages, putting Teutonic infantry ahead of generic, affecting Teutonic knights as well. the problem is that is becomes the same old same old, not too unique but it does fit the slow but powerful vibe.

First Military unit of that type is free
Allows Teutons flexibility. something they need. if getting scout rushed, they can make a spear for free so it doesn’t affect fast castle time. a free knight would help with knight rushes and a free militia could help us see more teuton drushes. Fits the mercenary bill and even gives them a good amount for free- a free onager is not something to take lightly against a xbow rush.

Military Buildings built 50% faster
Fits the defensive bill, let’s you field a milita, scout out earlier to rush. building siege faster to defend and castles quicker too. would make a castle drop into teutonic knights hard to stop.

Infantry Regenerate, increased effect with each monk tech researched.
This allows the infantry to be tanky like the +1/2 armor intended to be, but also affect Teutonic knights too. Now we are talking about a lot of gold to research these, and I expect the regeneration puts themslightly above any infantry but slavic ones with druhzina with all techs researched. Of course, this would almost be impossible in most games, but it gives the slow power climb with the added effect of feudal infantry that regenerate. Now you could make this even more unique, with infantry that regenerate, attack faster and move faster with each monk tech researched. You could balance it in a way that teutonic knights eventually almost reach champions in speed, but start off slower. We are talking small percentages here as far as increases, but enough that teuton infantry start off slightly better than generic and end as one of the best infantry civs.

Please, I’ve never felt so passionate about any balance change in this game so far. Lose the knight line bonus, it takes away from the infantry siege monk personality. make infantry not generic and have that bonus also affect the unique unit so they don’t always just stick with champions.

My tech tree:
Monks healing range 2x
Towers Garrison 2x units
Murder holes free (Remove free herbal medicine)
farms cost -33% (Nerf it to increase military bonus)
Town Center Garrison +10
-First Military Unit trained of that line is free
-Infantry regenerate, increased with each monk tech
Infantry regenerate, attack and move faster with each monk tech researched.

There was already a thread earlier today about this - not all of the same ideas, but following the basic idea that someone else had a different vision for Teutons. As with him, you’re late to the party, and, with respect to your ideas, there’s next to no chance they’ll be implemented as opposed to the visions of thousands of other people who might have different ideas, much less what the devs have already decided to do with Teutons. By all means, feel free to get creative with hypothetical bonuses, or to make your own mod, but understand that these ideas will not become mainstream. Creativity and passion for your ideas can be good, but they don’t make the devs owe you these changes.

That said, it looks like you’re proposing to give Teutons 14 different civ bonuses, which is way too many, even for Teutons. Beyond that, I find many of the ideas gimmicky, in a way that might be fun for a custom scenario or a mod, but not for the civ at large.

The additional armor for infantry and cav that the devs chose may not be the most “innovative” thing ever, but not everything needs to be the Khmer farm bonus, and it fits the theme of “slow but tanky.” If it becomes clear that it’s OP, it may be nerfed to just +1, or the Teutons may be nerfed in some other small way. As it is, many people, myself included, are pretty happy with how the Teutons are right now.


To clarify, I don’t want to give the Teutons 14 different bonuses, that’s absolutely absurd. Those were just ideas, much better ideas than +1 armor when the teutons were weak in feudal to begin with. I really broke it down into two unique changes that I think aren’t overpowered and would give a teuton player a wide array of options.

Truly though, how are you okay with the teutons not using infantry hardly at all and almost always going for knights? It is just the better option right now, and that’s not right. It’s so uninteresting. Bulgarians is the perfect contrast. They have free upgrades for militia, which is unique. Then the cavalry attack faster too. You have two totally different options to pick from, cheap militia or powerful knights. Teutons: same bonus on both infantry and cavalry, but the extra armor on knights and pals is just better because the effect snowballs.

So to clarify, 3 better options that help in feudal, make sense with Teuton identity and lets the teutonic knight see some use:
The first military unit trained of that line is free(possibly except siege)
Infantry regenerate, increased with each monk tech researched.
Infantry regenerate, attack, move faster with each monk tech researched.

Imagine, instead of going for a stable/blacksmith or range/blacksmith, you open feudal up with a range/stable, giving you a free militia, spear, archer, skirm and scout for free. It’s a wood investment to build all these necesary buildings, so it’s balanced, and the farm bonus helps with the wood cost to pull it off. You get your power leap in feudal, where teutons needed it the most, then transition to the swordsman line, siege and monks like teutons were supposed to do in the first place, now with the synergy and incentive to increase either regen rate or movement and attack speed too.

First off, most infantry (besides spear-line) have not been very “meta” for quite some time, except in low level games. There are plenty of civs with amazing infantry, such as Burmese or Goths, that are consistently ranked as bottom-tier civs, and plenty of high tier civs with strong infantry, but whose infantry is rarely used (Japanese, Slavs). Infantry bonuses are the most common type of military bonuses in the game, by far. So making Teutons yet another civ with “good infantry” wouldn’t do much to raise their overall power level, or make them a compelling choice for most players. The exception is the Teutonic Knight, which, aside from its speed, has the most impressive stats of any infantry unit in the game, by far. And we just saw them get the buff they most needed with their additional speed.

Contrast that with the Teuton’s stable, pre-buff. Despite having Paladins with all the attack and armor upgrades, nobody was going to pick Teutons for their cavalry when they could pick Franks, Lithuanians, Huns, Magyars, even Malians. It was an “option” the Teutons have, but having lots of lackluster options doesn’t make for an interesting civ. Giving the knight line extra armor gives players an actual reason to pick Teutons for their knights. You might argue that this overshadows their infantry, but that’s more of a meta issue, and as alluded to above, it happens with most civs. I would argue that +2 armor is actually slightly more impactful on infantry, since they are cheaper, easier to mass, and thus they receive more of the bonus per unit cost than cav do, although the cav bonus is also excellent.

As with Teutons, you might find that far more players choose to make knights. Most of the time, longswords are just a bad unit to mass in Castle Age, regardless of your civ bonus, whereas knights are common, even if they’re only average.

I guess what’s seen as creative depends on your point of view; some people might view this as a Viking, Japanese, and Celt ripoff all rolled into one.

Don’t love it; many people have suggested bonuses involving limited free units, but they’ve never been implemented, and with good reason. This would give a tiny power spike, but it pales in comparison with a unit discount or strong eco bonus, especially over time.

With regards to being weak in Feudal, Teutons were never meant to be a particularly strong early game civ, given their Imperial options of Siege, Infantry, Monks and Paladins. Their farm bonus, IMO, is enough of an early game boost, and they still have a better eco than, say Berbers (a decent civ, by all accounts) in Feudal. In any case, there’s no need to shoehorn the Teutons into becoming more of an infantry civ - they’ve always been tagged as a defensive civ, and the extra armor for infantry and cav fits that theme.


Okay, so we admit it. Then how are you alright with that? We all know that going knights is just so much better than long swordsman, it needs to be changed to a small degree. About 70% of my games become a knight rush and that’s a bit too much.

I totally disagree.
But they are a infantry civilization. From what I understand, the teutonic mercenaries didn’t use much cavalry. Having good infantry entices me to use infantry. I like to go for jap infantry, I wouldn’t if they were generic, like the teutons are.

I wouldn’t call it too impressive, because 85 food and 40 gold it hefty. I’m not sure how I feel about the buff, but I’m okay with it.

and having lackluster infantry makes for interesting civ’s then? Nobody is going to pick teutons for infantry when you have malians, burmese, japs or goths. Let’s figure out a way to get them there. Generic pal’s are much better than generic Champs, most civs have bonuses toward infantry because they need them to be viable.

This is why I favored the regeneration, because 3 units get this already, it’s not a unique niche. Vikings don’t get regenerating champs, so it’s something that could be done by a different means i.e monk techs

Not sure how you don’t love it, you’re right about the tiny power spike, but that’s exactly what they need, a little help to either defend or attack in early feudal. No other civ has a bonus like this because it’s hard to balance, but the cumans free kipchaks has showed us the devs know how to do it and the one time bonus can’t be abused, it’s naturally balanced.

I normally make only 3 farms if fast castling, so that saves what, 60 wood? I would rather have berber villagers with 10% extra speed. The berbers get one of the best bonuses in the game once they hit castle tho, they’re rewarded for surviving till then. Teutons do not get a huge spike like that, even with +1 armor, so they need options in feudal to be viable.

I don’t want a strong early game, I want a Korean/Berber/Saracen esque early game and I’m just not seeing that. They are all more flexible.

that doesn’t make sense at all? If anything that’s like the strongest point because you see wood savings immediately compared to other civ farm bonuses, you pay 36 wood while others pay 60 wood. The saved wood becomes easily apparent allowing you to place production buildings or extra farms or train spears/skirms/archers.

honestly, unless we’re going to drastically reinvent the militia line, longswords are never going to be good castle age units. You need that mobility or the range in castle age and knights and xbows fill that spot. infantry is not effective in low numbers and mass infantry isn’t possible or viable in the castle age window


Oh, as a global issue, I don’t love it at all. I miss no opportunity to rip on Supplies, since I’ll always maintain that it was a good idea (making infantry more viable) executed poorly (not actually improving infantry in combat in any way). But hey, it’s better than nothing, so I’ll take it, warts and all. Anyway, since it’s a global issue, it must be addressed in a global way (if it all; many will argue well that it’s a feature, not a bug), not on a local per-civ basis. No matter what changes you make to Teutons, it won’t make going Japanese Longswords in Castle a better idea, so for purposes of this thread, it’s completely irrelevant.

Straw man. Every civ should have something that they’re best at, and Teutons are certainly in the running now to be best at tanking melee damage, for infantry and cavalry. My point was that there are already plenty of civs with PerfectPlus™ infantry, and if that’s the major angle you’re going at to buff Teutons, it’s going to be hard for them to stand out against a sea of infantry civs.

It still reeks of those other civs’ bonuses, not to mention how fine-tuned it would have to be to not become stupidly overpowered. Even assuming a modest increase per tech, (say 5% faster attack, speed, and regen), it wouldn’t be long before you have Teuton champs that are faster than Celts, faster attacking than Japs, and regen (previously the domain of UUs)

Well, the crux of the matter is, different people have different tastes, and these changes, by and large, don’t pique my interest compared to what we already have. The thing everyone with new balance ideas needs to keep in mind, is that the default position is not to change the game every time someone comes up with new(?) balance ideas if they cannot be proven to be obviously bad. No, the default position is to change nothing, unless an idea proves to be interesting, balanced, and popular, and even then, most such ideas will never see implementation. So the burden is on you to win support for your ideas, and demonstrate why they’re superior to the current balance, more than it is on me (or anyone else) to justify the status quo. I’m not here to tell that all your ideas are “bad” - I don’t think they are, but I don’t find them compelling enough to get on board.

Hence, the best outlet, and likely the only one in which these changes may manifest, is if you make them happen in a mod or in the scenario editor.


Since they die in the same number of hits from halbs as Frank palas do, I guess you ragequit a lot against Franks.

But Teuton infantry is no longer generic.

Scouts, archers or skirms sustained by your cheaper farms. Or a tower rush with towers stronger than your enemy’s, as you can garrison double the number of villagers inside.

I don’t see these civs being more “flexible” than Teutons. In castle age Teutons have many options, the additional armour on Knights is cool as nor you nor your enemy won’t be able to afford armour upgrades just yet. Also unlike the civs you mentioned the Teuton eco bonus keeps getting better and better as you add TCs.


Agreed, Koreans are pretty much pigeonholed into archers/WWs and siege for the long term - they can make trash in Castle, but their cav and infantry are fairly bad in Imp. Berbers have great cav, but their archer line deadends in Imp, they don’t get halb, and have average siege. Saracens indeed are flexible, and if anything their open tech tree is similar to the Teutons, Byzantines, and Spanish, but their eco bonus is more situational. Teutons only have a weak archer line, but they have PerfectPlus™ infantry, a great knight line, great siege and monks, and overall strong defenses. Hence they’re seen as more of a mid-late game civ - sure, it takes a while to get to their strengths, but if anything, that fits the bill as Teutons are considered a slow but powerful lategame civ.


I meant those 3 civs are more flexible in feudal. Koreans have a strong archer and tower rush, even able to go spears and skirms for cheaper. Saracens have the market to buy and sell extremely efficiently, allowing them to field more units if they wanted to sell the starting stone. Berbers vill speed allows you to go forward a little more easier, but mainly the insane power spike in castle balances out a weak feudal.

How about a compromise? I understand that the extra armor gives teutons identity, but the problem is that no one will go for teutonic knights or champs with +2 armor pals. You could do something like this:
Forging, Iron Casting gives Infantry +1 Armor each
Cavalry return 5% of their cost. (4 food back from scouts, 3 food, 3.75 gold off knights)-Every 20 Pals you get a free one.

This makes Paladins still worth it but at least counter-able by melee civs + gives the infantry including the teutonic knight a bonus as well. Also allows for good scout rushes and a possible +1 armor in feudal for M@a, giving teutons the flexibility they need.

You could also do this:
The first barracks unit trained is free (one time only), lets them choose to drush, or defend from scouts by making a free spear and trying to get to castle.

No, the portions increased of those 3 traits would not come close to celts, japs or vikings bonuses. The idea is a extremely slight increase of those stats per monk tech, 1% probably. This means teuton infantry with 3 monk techs picked up would be 5% better than generic, not much at all, but still noticeable.

The problem is that the boyar existed to fill that role. It’s already been done, so let’s do something that hasn’t been done to address ALL the teuton problems.

Okay but any other wood bonus at that time is much better. Burmese free upgrade, celt 15% bonus, hun no houses, even the inca house bonus could be better at this point. I’m saying unless going for an all out feudal war, the farm bonus doesn’t help much to get up to castle, as in a fast castle build, you typically only make 3 farms. saving 60 wood means maybe a extra archer, it’s not much at all.

I don’t know why we are talking about fast castle, it’s a rare risky build and I’m pretty sure you need more than 3 farms for those builds too, which btw is almost enough wood for 3 archers. In most standard builds you have about 15-17 farms which is about 400 wood saved and it only snowballs further, I don’t know what makes you think this is a small bonus in any way.

This doesn’t make sense, do you counter paladin with lesser units like cavalier or champions? No, you make halbs or camels or elephants. 2 melee armor is not changing that against those units

aren’t they just missing blast furnace? halbs do just fine without that

Teutons have a great tower rush too with their double garrisons allowing them to garrison vills and m@a too or trush with 10 vills, later in castle age you get free murder holes so your enemy can’t just clean the towers with knights easily and like I’ve already said their wood bonus is as good as others, so they can go any unit, even archers into crossbows (they only miss thumb ring which isn’t researched until late castle because of its cost)


I Like the Changes to teutons. Right now i would only maybe adress their water Game, as they are bad in water but im not sure about that.
Ive been thinking that maybe their UT could increase galley Line range by 2 in addition to current effect, but in the Other hand even though their Ships are bad all that saved Wood could allow them to build more Docks and Ships.

at this point just make it bracer honestly 11

Teutons are weak in feudal, so typically either a trush or a fast castle is performed. I’m not talking the entire game, my post has been centered on the fact that teutons are very weak early on. the farm bonus depends on how many farms you’re adding, and early on, it shouldnt be that many unless you’re having a huge feudal war. The berries, deer and 2 boar run out around the same time you click up to castle, so few farms are made until clicking up to castle. Therefor, the bonus is not utilized until castle, when teutons have to start making farms. They need the slightest help in feudal, as they don’t have much.

Halbs still work well but for civ’s that have heavy camels, or even camels for that part, the extra melee armor really hurts. Camels really struggle with teuton pals, more than frankish ones, which is just not right.

My main gripe is teutons becoming a one trick pony. Makes the game not fun and it’s a scary balance change, makes me worry about the future. So much potential wasted for a civ that could be truly unique.

So much wrong here. I don’t know what level you play at but unless you place like 2 vills on animals, 8 sheep, 2 boars and 4 deer are finished by 13 mins max(the time you just reach feudal and place horse collar farms), standard 5 on berries should finish them by 18-19 mins(could be wrong), so unless you’re playing on like high starting resources or something you can’t go to castle without farms.
Fast castle is not something you perform because you’re weak in feudal(which btw I disagree with, teutons shine here). FC is a good way to lose to forwards or any kind of aggression, not a strategy for open maps or 1v1

Heavy camels still win 1v1, paladin costs much more to upgrade and paladins are more expensive per unit too so I don’t know why this is a problem at all. Teutons were famous as mounted knights anyway

I can consistently hit castle before 16 min with only 2-3 vills on farms. Standard 1v1 resouces, 1250-1300 elo ranked.

thats what 24-25 pop? sounds like a very bad eco. And not one player in that level goes aggro in feudal? because if they did you would die because I can tell you don’t even place a barracks before castle.
Edit: btw still doesn’t explain how you don’t run out of animals by 14-15 mins

that’s exactly when i run out of animals, 13-14 min, you have enough to fast castle with 3 farms plus berries PLUS a barracks because almost everyone goes scouts. I would be at 27 pop.

This comes off as a much weaker version of Madrasah, or the Berber discount - the current bonus is much stronger, and even just +1 armor would be stronger.

Well yes, they get the job done for sure. But infantry is definitely not an area of relative strength for them, and in trash wars or against infantry civs, it’s not going to be the best matchup. I brought it up to point out that Koreans are not that flexible in lategame in terms of having many strong unit lines.

I also like where Teutons are at right now, but for gameplay and historical reasons, I don’t see the need for a buff on water.

That used to be pure meta (the Flush of the early-mid 2000’s), and forms of it are still fairly viable, so I wouldn’t be too quick to discount it. I still maintain that Teutons have a better eco than Koreans in Feudal and Castle, probably in Imp as well. The Korean wood bonus sounds nice on paper, but it doesn’t do very much unless you’re making ships. On the spear and archer line, for example, you save only 4 wood/unit, so just 1 Teuton farm saves you as much as the Korean saves on 6 archers/spears, but with the added flexibility of helping you in a wider variety of situations.

To be frank, I mean, Teuton, this is exactly why I don’t favor intensifying the infantry focus of Teutons - not only would it make them more of a “one trick pony,” especially if they never got a knight line buff, but as mentioned before, it would buff the least meta/hardest to use unit line. As it is, the identity of Teutons as “defensive, tanky, slow and powerful” civ is more interesting to me than merely “infantry civ.” The former puts them in a very small, unique group along with the Byzantines and Koreans, the latter would put them in direct competition with the 10 other strong infantry civs. And honestly, Teutons are reasonably flexible. Their trash game and tower rush is decent in Feudal, in castle, they can go knights, siege + monks, siege + halbs, and in Imp they can do everything well except archers and navy.


I think slow is the opposite of cavalry though. Even Paladins without husbandry can outrun halbs and do serious damage to a eco, Sure, if we wanted to buff the knights, that’s fine, but +1 armor is too much in castle for free. If we have to stick with this change, then what don’t we make it tied to forging and iron casting? Are you against that change?

I think as it stands, most people here are saying the farm bonus is quite good, so how about these changes:

Farms cost -33%(return this bonus back to original) (Maybe even less?)
Change the +1/+2 armor to be tied to forging and iron casting, letting Teutons have weaker knight rushes but better late castle ones, also giving LS and pikes get the +1 bonus if needed late castle too.

OR Iron casting and blast furnace give the affect. you could make it cost 50% more for the added effect, balancing out the effect, also something that has never been done before with any civ.

At this point, early pals with 9 melee armor is extremely strong and I’m just trying to find a way to balance this out. The power spike is too good early imperial.

Also, how about we make monk upgrades affect only teutonic knights? make it a innate ability of Teutonic Knights. Reduce the speed from where it is now and make monk tech affect it, improving attack and movement rate. gives the teutonic knight a slight buff and synergy with monks.

The player could then choose to go for straight knights, Strong LS and Pikes, or castle drop into Teutonic knts with monks.