Thank you Devs + India balance suggestion

Dear devs, sorry I’ve been a “negative Nancy” and a “Sally salter” at times, but my faith has been restored, thank you all for making an amazing patch and fixing a lot of the problems. You guys are doing an amazing job. You are all giga Chads in my book now :innocent::pray:

Making this post to mainly India, because it’s my belief they are one of the only remaining S tier civs left.
This civ is overall just too good militarily, economically, hardly without weakness.

I’m currently around rank 150ish on the 1v1 sup ladder and most Indian opponents agree with me that India is OP, particularly siege elephants.
I recognize that India needs a decent anti artillery unit, however these bad boiiis are almost invincible, their high hp/fast speed make them near impossible to snipe, and they are speedy age3 mortars.
Currently there’s zero way to deal with them effectively as they are too fast to catch.

My suggestions are these:

1.Make shipping them cost 100-200 more food.
2.Make culverins a viable counter to siege eles by reducing their HP & boosting RR% to compensate. They are tagged as Light Cav & Artillery, so you’d think culvs would counter them, but it takes I believe 6(?) shots from a culv to kill a siege ele. Their current stats are 700hp .30range resist. My proposal is changing the stats to something like 350hp .60RR (Or 300hp, .75RR). This would keep their tankiness at range but make them vulnerable to culvs and melee. Which Indias army is so good it’s already very hard to make melee units vs them and investing in culvs is highly risky bc it’s a huge investment.
2. Alternative would be to the reducing siege eles range and speed slightly and increasing cost to ship 2 siege eles.

I’m sure there are more things about India that need to be toned down, like possibly howdahs (hazza said they are OP) but siege eles are my main qualm with India. Would love to hear input.
Thanks.

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Hahahahahahahaahha hahahahahahaah hahahahaha they are literally countered by every f***ng unit ingame. If they are OP in sup then move buffs to imperial upgrade as sepoys get a year ago.

A completely NO, they have the most expensive and pop heavy units while cant counter canons and walls efectively. Also just 2 cards for coin and food, and about wood, well some maps arent full of trees.

Karni Mata is a joke, now a cheap tent give a boost that can be placed around the map.

Mansabdars are kinda useless when the battle is far from the wonder and they lack of church and arsenal upgrades, just getting CIR for gurkhas.

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have to spend literally a whole 1000 res card for a cheap upgrade :upside_down_face:

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I disagree. India is a good all-round civ, strong in the right hands, but not OP in any way whatsoever. Any pro would attest to that.

Keep in mind India relies heavily on Siege Elephants as their only anti-artillery unit (heck only artillery) being an infantry-heavy civ. They have no other counter to falcs, and paper-thin Sowars and I-will-always-die-before-I-connect-fat-bois Mahouts aren’t it either.

Now coming to the cost of a Seige Elephant, they cost 300w 350c, which is 200 more wood than your culv/falc which is simply not possible to mass as easy when you realise India is a wood-dependent civilization already utilizing wood for vills and houses. They cost 7 pop each compared to 5 of falcs and 4 of culvs.

Invincible? Probably the only unit barring buildings or wagons that get countered by every unit in the game. They have the light cav/artillery tag. Just march your skirms/musks/Goons forward, and snipe them. Notice how other artilleries don’t have light-cav tag? Yup. Add the fact that they have 2 range less than your culvs, make them easy targets.
Also, speedy? They are just 4 speed.

They already cost 350f at a time when India has just about made it to age 3 and is frantically looking for a way to neutralise your I-right-click-your-base-an-entire-minute-and-a-half-earlier-with-age-up-units-and-more-to-spam Spain and other ffs of their ilk.
Don’t make me choose between my Urumi (750f) or I-only-counter-skirms/bows-if-no-mine/tree-in-sight Mahouts (1000f for 3). Siege Elephants aren’t even anti-infantry and 500f is definitely not worth it.

Now add +200w and we’re really talking about “huge investment”. Just siege down a couple of buildings till India ships this and pull back till you snipe it.

Reducing the range and speed to the point where skirms can walk up to your now-frontline siege elephant while they click a picture with it and snipe it down. Sure, that’s a good idea with them being the only counter India has to walls, ships and artillery.

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Kanoo speaks the truth :pray:

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You’d have to be making a huge blunder to lose to Spain with India. It’s almost a free win for India.
Spain is terrible vs mass musk. They only have cav and pike shipments and 2 falcs useless.

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:upside_down_face: I’m fairly certain most top players consider spain-india to be heavily spain favoured

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That’s silly.
Ask the top Spain player rohbrot, he’ll agree with me 1000%

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I’m fairly certain I’ve heard Hazza and Kaiser-slayer Aykin say it’s a Spain-favoured matchup. India is just too slow to deny an ff or risks staying in age 2. You’d most likely have sent 2 cards in age 3 by the time India just clicks up.

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That is absurd and no, it’s an alliteration and common saying. The name Nancy is a common female name like Karen, Linda, etc. You are grasping for straws. Oi vey…

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Yes, india is op in supremacy. Most of the posters here play treaty where india is ok.

The problem with india isn’t the siege elephant. It is the ability to mass sepoys in age 2, and also having a complete roaster of units in age 2, meaning you can’t really FF or exploit counter weakness.

Personally I’d make sepoys a tad more expensive. Like +5 gold cost.

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I like this suggestion even more, and thank you.
I think it’s telling judging by kotow tourney stats that right up there with China and Lakota is India with most picks. Yeah the win rate is at 45% after q4 but considering how lakota and China laming is free elo the win %s aren’t that telling.

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Is that so? Then I’ll take back what I said before. I did not know that the term “Negative Nancy” was a colloquial language.

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India is a strong civ, but certainly not OP. And 200% not the only S tier civ left lol. You said their is no weakness, but India has lke clearest and easy to understand civ weakness.

Military: No true cannon, no easy access to hussar-equivalent, weak goon, expensive elifants
Economy: wood cost vill, 108% xp requirement for a shipment,
Gameplay: focus on melee units (we know ranged>melee), camels need 2 cards to be good

its ‘OP’ strength is definitely not Siege ellies. ( how i wish it was ) Try shooting them once with your skirms, (since india ha no cannon, you have nothing to fear) you might be surprised how easily they fall down.

It has a set gameplay style with rather small variation and a clear weakness and counter strategy. On the list of Op civs, India will be around bottom of the upper half, but definitely not the top.

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Their OP strength is their near invincible infantry deathball and mega good eco behind it. They wouldn’t be OP if siege eles weren’t so fast and had such high range because artillery might have a remote chance of doing work
My suggestion to decrease siege ele HP but compensate with higher range resist buff is to make possible countering them with culverins. They are tagged as artillery after all. Don’t you think a mobile culv/mortar that requires SIX culverin shots to die is too much? I’m trying to be very generous to the India fans as it wouldn’t change hardly anything. Make culvs 3 shot a siege ele.
Trying to snipe them with skirms is a joke, top 200 players 1v1 sup are good enough to not let that happen 95% of the time.
I respect you Kanoo and Dansil and you are still forum giga Chads in my eyes, but please be honest, am I being unfair? Is the my suggestion really that outlandish? Please be honest.
Ps.
Especially since culvs would be a huge investment for your opponent and the only thing they would counter are your siege eles, but you would have just as much a chance t0 kill the culvs before they kill your eles.

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I don’t think they need a nerf, I find them quite balanced. I will admit the siege ele is annoying though especially when guarded by a lot of sepoy and they keep taking down your buildings and backing off.

Does my suggestion even count as a “nerf”?

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Yeah, lowering their hp, range etc would be a nerf.

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I respect you too, always @stepheneaux12. Sorry if it seemed otherwise. My opinion is based on what I really believe to be true and I stand by it. However, if pro players that aren’t biased seem to think otherwise, I will be more than happy to raise my hand and admit I was wrong.

At the end of the day, all of us (at least most of us) want this game to be as balanced as it can be regardless of certain civs being our main squeeze/s.

Therefore, to that effect, I have made a post on ESOC Strategy Forum, where hopefully the big boys chime in with their views.

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