Your answer does not show that you know more about Chinese history than the game production team. Most of your statements are the result of your own imagination.
First of all, I don’t know where you got the idea that “Wú” regime belongs to the Wú language, the “Shǔ” to the Jìn language from. Even according to the crude modern correspondence, Shǔ (Sichuan, Chongqing) also speaks Southwestern Mandarin, any relationship with Jìn?
Further, modern Macedonia speaks South Slavic, so did ancient Macedonia also speak South Slavic or what? Sultanate of Rum has Rum in its name, so were they Romans who spoke Latin? Why do British people speak Anglo-Saxon instead of Brittonic? Cultures, races, families, and titles can have various “mismatches” in history, and “Wèi”, “Wú”, and “Shǔ” (well, the title of their regime in history is actually “Hàn”, just like the icon in the game; a bit like the title of “Byzantium” is “Rome”) are just titles. If you don’t understand what a title is, please play CK3. Not to mention the monarchs of the other two, just the Sun family of “Wú”, who was most likely to be indigenous among these three families, was of humble origins, but made their fortune with the help of people from the Huái River in the north. What representativeness can they have?
I never claimed something else. However, I would argue that, compared to non Chinese people, I have a relatively good perspective on language relations. That is all.
No, the results of the reality.
I did not have an idea, but I posted a language map of the various Sinitic languages, including Mandarin, which is easy to understand. The “Wu” civ in the game belong to the Wu people in China, so it is logical, that they speak Wu..
The dialect of the “Shu” is apparently a Mandarin dialect..
Of course I know that, but you have to understand, that people, especially from East Asia, finally want to have more civs in the game from their area.
Apparently enough, to make it its own DLC together with Khitans and Jurchen.
How about we just let people voice both their criticism and their support towards the DLC here in the forum?
Some of the new campaign heroes’ abilities feel quite “mythical”, too, like a stomping horse shaking the earth, slowing down enemies with red waves, and releasing flying lanterns not unlike those of the Pioneer from AoMRIP.
Whatever you think about them, definitely useful for people creating scenarios involving supernatural or fantasy elements.
Yodit is known from myth because there were no good records
The 3K are known from the Romance because the Romance is more popular than the real history
Those arent the same thing
I still buy and play it, it still better than chronicles very much. But I don’t like hero, + the way fire acher do.
Sadly, even setting aside the fact that it doesn’t fit the time frame or civilization theme, I’m not really sold on the Three Kingdoms DLC itself. It feels like all three factions just stop at the Battle of Chibi — but there are so many important battles after that. Such wasted potential.
They should’ve at least gone as far as the Battle of Fancheng — a major three-way conflict where all factions were involved.
I hope I’m wrong, but it’s looking less and less likely.
It literally does stop there.
This is making my dream come true as well as many people who were fans of Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Yes, thank you devs for basing it on Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a fictional story. I always wanted to play a game that incorporated mythology into its ages, but sadly we don’t have that yet.
I would grease myself up for that one. I’d sell an 'orse for it.
So they ended the campaigns on this giant cliffhanger just to make us eager to buy the next episode of the Three Kingdoms DLC?
Sound really stupid about that idea.
Again, a 3 Kingdoms campaign without 3 Kingdoms haha.
Regardless of remasters, it was like the second expansion(ish) ever released. And the third! Star Wars civs are basically as overdone as European civs are.
I like that this forum has an edit history for each post.
My question:
I don’t know where you got the idea that… the “Shǔ” to the Jìn language from. Even according to the crude modern correspondence, Shǔ (Sichuan, Chongqing) also speaks Southwestern Mandarin, any relationship with Jìn?
was for your post:
This is your respond:
About the language of 3K-Wu:
Read:
What is the difference between the current Wu language and the Wu language during the Three Kingdoms period? - tittii’s answer - Zhihu
https://www.zhihu.com/question/396182320/answer/1335376357
I think anyone can use a translator to read this answer, although there are some phonological terms
However, more and more northern Hàn people moved south to the present Wú language area during the Qín and Hàn dynasties. This can be inferred from the fact that the northern Hàn people set up counties in this area during the Qín and Hàn dynasties.
Seventeen counties were set up in the Qín Dynasty: Dāntú, Qū’ē, Wúxiàn, Lóuxiàn, Yángxiàn, Hǎiyán, Yóuquán, Zhāngxiàn, Wúchéng, Yúháng, Qiántáng, Shānyīn, Gōuzhāng, Yínxiàn, Zhūjì, Wūshāng and Dàmò. All of the above counties belonged to Kuàiji Commandery. Except for Wūshāng and Dàmò, their areas were concentrated in the northern part of the present Wu dialect area. The areas of Wenzhou and Líshǔi in the present-day Wú dialect region belong to the Mǐnzhong Commandery area, historically known as Dōngpíng.
By the second year of the Yuánshǐ reign title of Emperor Píng of the Western Hàn Dynasty (2 AD), Màoxiàn, Yúyáo, Yújī, Yúqián, Shàngyú, Wúxī, Pílíng, Lìyáng, and Húipǔ (now Línhǎi) were added. Among them, only Húipǔ is located in the southern part of the present Wú language area.
By the first year of Yǒnghé reign title of Emperor Shùn of the Eastern Hàn Dynasty (140 AD), Yǒngníng (now Wēnzhōu), Fùchun, Gùzhang and Shànxiàn were added. Except for Yǒngníng, all of these places are in the north.
Therefore, during the Qín and Hàn dynasties, the immigration and development of the Wú language area by northern Hàn people was mainly in the north, while the south remained the territory of the Bǎiyuè. See Figure 2.
It was not until the Three Kingdoms (Wú) period that the southern part of the Wú language area saw a climax in the large-scale establishment of counties. The newly established counties included Pǔjiāng, Dōngyáng, Chángshān (now Jīnhuá), Súichāng, Sōngyáng, Chángshān, Qúzhou (all above were established in the late Eastern Hàn Dynasty), Tiāntāi, Yǒngkāng, and Rùi’ān. Its territory has spread to the four major areas of Tāizhōu, Wùzhōu, Chǔqú and Jīnhuá in the southern part of the present-day Wú language area. However, there were still a large number of Bǎiyuè people in the vast rural areas. The Biography of Xǔ Jìng in the Records of Shǔ records a letter between Xǔ Jìng and Cáo Cāo, saying that from Kuàiji “to the south to Jiaozhou, passing through Dōng’ōu and Mǐnyuè countries, traveling 10 thousand lǐ, no any Hàn land was seen.” This statement may be a bit exaggerated, but it is true that southern Zhèjiāng was not occupied exclusively by the Hàn people at that time.
Has the Wú dialect in the present-day Wú language area already formed with obvious characteristics that distinguishes it from northern Chinese? It is difficult to judge because there is no clear evidence in historical documents. Therefore, it is not considered that the language used orally by the residents of the Wú State during the Three Kingdoms period was a Wú dialect with obvious characteristics that was different from northern Chinese.
I am from South China, but I don’t need an AoE civ named after a short-lived regime, especially when it is so grotesque and farcical that the names of these short-lived regimes are even used as representations of some non-Hàn cultures (In this case, I even suspect that avoiding sensitive content conspiracy is the most reasonable.)
“Han Chinese” itself is a political or geopolitical concept forged by the ROC and continued by the PRC. Its existence is merely 100 years or so.
In the past the term “Han” only referred to those from the Yellow River region, and included sinicized northern peoples like Khitans and Jurchens. It did not refer to those from the Yangtse region or further south.
Even as recent as the late Qing era, most Cantonese still identified as “Punti” or “Yue” and not as “Han”. Cantonese scholars called themselves “粤種” at that time.
Both the so-called “Han Minzu” (or Han ethnic group) and “Zhonghua Minzu” are political forgeries dating back only to the early 20th century. They cannot trace back to the medieval era let alone ancient times.
It’s only you on this forum who cries this. Ever thought you might be wrong?
I’m not bragging, but I’m probably more well versed in Chinese history and East Asian history than 90% of the people who frequent this forum.
They’re indeed political forgeries from the last century. Even the term Minzu was borrowed from Japanese Minzoku, which was in turn translated from the western concept of “nationality”.
Back in the medieval times, such a concept that encompassed peoples from both the north and the south of China did not exist. The term “Hanren” at that time only referred to those from the Yellow River region.
Of course this doesn’t mean I support the new 3K civs. They don’t fit in the main game because first their time period was too early and second they were short lived polities without leaving much impact.
To be honest, I’m not a historian—I studied Chinese language and literature as an undergraduat（漢語言文學）e—so I won’t claim expertise in this area. But I do find something in your arguments a bit confusing, and I’d appreciate your thoughts.
In this thread, you mentioned that:
“Han Chinese” itself is a political or geopolitical concept forged by the ROC and continued by the PRC. Its existence is merely 100 years or so.
But in another post, you said:
“Yue is no longer relevant in the medieval era, since most of the people who were previously called ‘Yue’ in the Yangtse region had been assimilated or absorbed into the Sinitic populace by the Middle Ages.”
Here’s where I’m puzzled: if “Han Chinese” as an identity didn’t exist until the 20th century, then who exactly were these “Sinitic” people that others were being absorbed into during the medieval era? Isn’t that implicitly acknowledging the existence of some coherent cultural or civilizational identity—perhaps not called “Han” at the time, but still clearly distinguishable and continuous with what later became known as Han?
Could you clarify how you reconcile these two positions?
I’m sorry, perhaps I should have explained myself better.
The reason is different parts of South China were sinicized at different times.
By the medieval Tang and Song periods, the Yangtse region had been thoroughly sinicized for the most part, but Far South China and Southwest China hadn’t.
Hence the term “Yue”, while no longer relevant for the Yangtse region, was still somewhat relevant for Far South and Southwest China. Although by this time the medieval Sinitic people had developed more accurate terms to describe the native peoples they encountered in those regions, often based on the endonyms of those peoples rather than “Yue” which was an exonym or an umbrella term. For instance they used the term “僚” to refer to the natives they encountered in Guangdong, Guangxi, and Guizhou, and according to linguists this either derived from the proto-Kra term “Kleeu” or “Klao” which meant “people”, or from the Tai or proto-Tai term ‘Raeuz“ which meant “we” or “us”.
I don’t have much time right now and I don’t wanna deviate the topic too much, if you wanna learn more you can DM me.
“different parts of South China” → different parts of Southern China (Southern China, 南部中国)
“Far South China” → South China (华南)