really? then i guess we should buff the berber stable discount to 50% and you’d be fine with that because cost isn’t impacting the performance of the unit is it?
yes it will, because the militia is able to do more damage, per cost, which makes it better. why do you think one of the ways to buff a unit is to adjust its cost? because it means you’re getting more VALUE out of the unit.
why do you think that when they lowered the cost of cavalry archers in the past, the huns discount was changed with it? if cost didn’t impact performance, it would have been fine to leave the discount as is.
it also impacts value. but gosh keep telling LIES.
Yeah good point, rams at least should not be killed in seconds from a ranged unit. But I just suggested to reduce the general attack bonus vs siege and increase the ROF as good nerfs for the Mangudai, so I don’t know if removing their bonus completely vs Rams/trebs will be good.
You are the one who brought the wrong way to counter arguments. You said if we nerf Mangudai they will need a compensate, and I suggested to reduce cost and TT, if this is not good then there are many other suggestions to compensate the nerf. IMO they don’t even need a compensate even with those nerfs becasue the unit will still strong, those nerfs are just to make the unit more balanced than its current stat.
This is bm. please stop that. Both of you just try to make a point.
But this statement just forces your discussion into a personal mess. You both brought up your points, there is absolutely no need to force it personal with a passive-agressive statement like this.
and my point is - based on your arguments yesterday, this isn’t compensation - yesterday you told me cost doesn’t impact performance. therefore reducing the cost of the upgrade isn’t compensation. as for training time - the training time of the mangudai is good as is.
the mongol civ is literally built around the mangudai. a nerf to the mangudai means a nerf to the civ. the civ is balanced. the unit is not. nerfing the unit to balanced means the civ becomes weak. that is why it needs compensation buffs.
11 OMG! The Costs effect on numbers not performance. Making the unit cheaper means it will be easier to mass but not better as itself, cost effect on numbers. it is a matter of QUANTITY not a matter of QUALITY.
Then why we see the devs didn’t compensate Burmese after the nerf of Arambai?! Because it is fine. Even with my suggestions to nerf the Mangudai, the Mangudai will still the best UU in the game and will still so strong.
and if numbers affecting performance wasn’t intended, then why do they give bonuses to civs that allow them to have more numbers? like you know - Goths, or Huns, or Berbers or Mayans?
and as the old saying goes “Quantity has a Quality all its own”. Lanchesters Law proves numbers is a quality. what is going to be stronger? having 20% more attack on your knights, or having 20% more knights?
no, they clearly aren’t. but the devs have admitted that they are looking at buffing burmese, they just want more data on how to do it.
Yeah and this the goal of compensate. You make “X” unit weaker, but give it “Y” bonus to make it cheaper a little. It will balance the general performane. But again, IMO the Mangudai even with those nerfs doesn’t need a compensate.
Mangudai, broken? That’s ridiculous. It is strong, yes, but not broken.
Cavalry Archers in general are not a unit you want as the core of your army, given their high cost and the sheer number of weaknesses they have, while not having a straight advantage against anything except infantry (and even then, one have to be warry of Halbs…).
I mean, here is a list of units that can be used against cavalry archers :
Halbs (should they get close, they wreck them)
Skirmishers (natural counter)
Camels (like Halbs, but way faster)
Knight line (beefy stats so they can force their way through)
Light cavalry line (on account of their good PA while being trash units)
Well how to compensate Mongols after the nerf of Mangudai there are many suggestions in my head:
Give them redemption.
Separate their imperial UT bonus (how?) Mongols imperial UT make their siege units move 50% faster, so give them free 20% as a free bonus for the civ and make their imp tech give 30% speed. (But I think this will be broken LOL).
Give them bonus for their steppe lancers like for example (+1 attack in castle age, +1 in imperial; 2 in total).
YOU ALSO SAID YOU DIDN’T WANT TO COMPENSATE THE MANGUDAI ITSELF.
right here. which is why i said people shouldn’t be proposing balance changes unless they look at the big picture.
you’re not looking at the big picture. you see what you view as a problem, the mangudai, and everything else is someone elses problem.
Yeah because I believe Mangudai don’t need a compensate becasue the unit itself is strong! But then you suggested to compensate the Mongols not the Mangudai, so I gave you 3 suggestions! Didn’t I?! Maybe give their siege units only 10% speed and make drills give them 40%, and about my steppe lancer suggestion to give them +1 attack in castle and +1 imperial is fine same for redemption.
one of which applies to a unit it already has the best of (steppe lancers) and shouldn’t be buffed for mongols as is.
one of which is minor and niche and doesn’t help the civ at all, so is that really a buff (redemption), seriously how often do you see mongols going monks? and the other of which is busted?
the point is your “solution” isn’t a solution and creates more problems. and when confronted with that, you throw out 1 throw away, 1 broken, and 1 buff that while could work, would be better suited for another civ, seeing as mongols already have the best steppe lancers in the game.
like i said - look at the big picture - you’re just throwing stuff at the walling and hoping it sticks.