Meso civs innately have less units to choose from. No cavalry, no CA.
They get incredible eagles, top tier archers, siege ram, and actual university/defensive techs.
Cumans do have better trash options, for sure. And SO. But they only have one great unit: Paladin. Their CA is not great, and the Kipchak is good, but not great. Mayans have multiple GREAT options.
Anyway; I’m not trying to compare down a long train with other civs and units. That’s useful, but the point in my mind is the Kipchak. I’m confident Kipchak need a small buff, and +1 damage would work. Range is an option, but I think damage for Cuman CA is what is needed.
Another option is to put their firing rate back to what it was pre-patch. Increases their damage output by 15% against everything, instead of 25% against units with base peirce armor of 3 (depending on the number of arrows that hit, that number changes) in post imp. That would improve the unit generally, and be less risky as to giving them a big power spike in imp.
I do understand your gold argument. I actually wouldn’t be hard set against increasing the cost slightly (5 at most). But I still do think the problem is with the Kipchak’s damage. Bracer instead of chemistry is an option as well, but I don’t think range is the solution.
their CA is only missing Bracer. literally that is it.
Mayans have less options, they need them to be great. Mayans also drop off a cliff in winrate.
and yet you’re giving them a big power increase either way. the fact is that at 35 gold the kipchak is dang cheap and that limits what you can do with it without seriously breaking them in the late game.
most other cav archers cost 60g minimum and you only want this one to cost 2/3 that at most, and give it a big power boost? its literally cheaper then most foot archers.
Which is arguably the most important technology for Cavalry Archers, generally speaking.
With that cost increase, it would cost the same as a Cavalry Archer. Obviously, it is much cheaper on gold as you said. But a) it is a unique unit, b) is relatively weak at the moment.
I do like the addition of Bracer for what it does to Cuman Cavalry Archers. I don’t think I ever see Cuman Cavalry Archers used. But Kipchak do not need range, IMO. I don’t think that would help them in an area that they need help; it would make them stronger versus other ranged units, and I think that would make them trade to cost-effectively versus other archers. You could micro them perfectly and never take a hit, unlike cavalry. You can’t micro Cavalry super effectively, even with range.
It’s one of those things that you have to experience when using them in game. The lower range forces you to close distance to combat ranged units, which decreases the chances of you being able to dodge ballistics or outmicro other archers in general. Lower range helps keep their micromanagement power in check.
Reverse the price on the Kipchak to 35 wood and 60 gold and i’ll freely endorse not only increasing the attack by 1 (Both normal and Elite), but agree to them getting bracer as well, without giving up Chemistry, and keeping its food/wood only elite upgrade cost.
seeing as the unit actually has a reasonable cost.
Comparison to the Mangudai (all stats with upgrades applied)
35 wood vs 55 -> cheaper
60 gold vs 65 -> cheaper
20 second training vs 26 -> faster
1.61 speed vs 1.595 -> faster
10 damage + 3*3 vs 12 - > should be roughly equal assuming enemy has pierce armor.
2.2 rate of fire vs 1.7 -> slower attack rate
65 hp vs 80 -> less hp
4/6 Armor vs 3/4 -> more armor
Honestly pretty sure that might be a bit much of a buff lol.
And the Mangudai is also recognized as the best UU in the entire game by many players. T90 thinks it is, also (and I think T90 is probably the best person to discuss game balance with, since he sees SO many games). The Kipchak isn’t even close to that level.
Even normal Cavalry Archers shred Kipchak. FU Japanese vs. FU Cuman. 24v24. Half of the Japanese units remain, and they’re virtually equal cost overall (obviously less gold). It’s very, very cost effective - you even lose less Gold.
Mangudai also destroy Kipchak, in equal numbers or equal resources (although not as cost-effectively as HCA, because they cost much more).
Kipchaks are weak to range units (except Skirmishers - they fare better vs them than most CA because Skirms have such low HP+the arrows), because they’re designed to be behind a melee force (unless you have a big numbers advantage or are raiding). Giving them equal range would change their role, because you take away the ability for other archer units to decide whether to fight them or not. Kipchaks would then control that decision, and would have even better micro ability. +1 damage helps to round them out better, without changing their role.
I don’t necessarily feel Kipchaks should be a massive powerhouse unit on their own - I want them to be able to contribute better to a Cuman army composition.
Your suggestion of numbers is definitely interesting…it’d be a MASSIVE change to the Kipchak, though, and it’d be hard to realistically go Knights+Kipchak - maybe Steppe Lancers+Kipchak instead? It would change the army composition of Cumans for sure. But Steppe Lancers suck right now, so it might actually be a nerf overall to Cumans. Knight+Kipchak would be retartedly gold intense. Not more expensive overall, though…it’d be interesting. Give them a MASSIVE powerspike with castles, though.
thats due to a variety of reasons, but mostly because i don’t think the kipchak is designed as an anti cav archer unit with the way its attack works. combine with its lower health and yeah.
and like i said, the problem with that is their dirt cheap cost. if they are able to contribute to the composition, but have such a cheap cost, and yes, even 40g is cheap for a cav archer, they will wreck face in the late game.
well yeah, that’s because the new kipchak wouldn’t need that much support in the first place. the unit literally is a force unto itself.
my point though goes back to - its too darn cheap to make effective without breaking it.
My question is this - if +1 range isn’t broken, why is +1 damage?
+1 range expands their entire role of use. It makes them more flexible than they already are - and they’re fairly flexible because of the 0 frame delay. I feel that could be an even larger buff than +1 damage.
Range is a far more complicated subject than damage, and I don’t feel that kind of change could be analyzed with statistics. It would have to be played out. I could try a data mod, once I figure all this out.
i just think that given the way the kipchak is designed, more damage could hurt its balance more then more range. with its low health, low attack, and low gold cost, it doesn’t seem like a unit meant to stick around and blow things up. its meant to get in and get out. range helps with that.
i could be entirely wrong, but i just think the kipchak is a pain in the butt to balance in general due to 35g cost.
Hmm. Instead of increasing its power, increase its flexibility overall.
You’re right about the gold cost. It’s a hard thing. Right now, it’s cheap enough to throw into the while going full Knights.
Interesting test I just ran - totally countered my expectations - 24 Kipchak vs 30 Japanese Arbalest. 9 Kipchak remained. Vs 33 (almost exactly equal res), 2 Kipchak were left - still, better than I expected. It makes sense now, looking at the stats, but didn’t expect it.
It definitely is a hard topic. I’ll keep thinking on it for sure.
And what makes it even harder to balance is the fact that they have Fully Upgraded Paladins. Huns are at least counter balanced by the fact that everything they have that isn’t the Cav Archer and Paladin is…not so great.
Cumans have solid Siege, FU champs (minus Supplies), and a better Eco.
Most people look at HP and Damage, and forget stuff like price, RoF, Armour, special resistances, and so on.
This happens in almost every strategy game, even in tabletop games. It is usually RPG players that know better, because they are used to navigate a lot more stats with very minor bonuses stacking on a whole new value.
I agree with this, bracer is too big of a change for both Cumans and the kipchak. 7 range could be too much and not to mention cumans have steppe husbandry cav archers, missing chemistry wouldn’t be that bad.
Giving Elite kipchak 6 attack sounds like an ideal buff without changing too much
I do not entirely agree, since it would also help the cumans Defenses and Navy, 2 areas where they are currently lacking (and everyone knows how much I like decent navies ).
Bracer would also help their baseline Cav Archers a lot, and even though an extra Range may be a bit of an overbuff to the Kipchak, I think the Cav Archers need it.
That’s exactly my issue with giving Cumans bracer. If they have bad defenses and navy, its by design. And stone walls are the only real lacking factor in defense since towers aren’t used for defense on most maps. Feudal 2nd TC is also an incredible defensive tool. Even on water they’re perfectly fine until imperial.
Their cav archers are produced in 17 secs after the UT is researched which is crazy fast, in imp its down to 9 secs after HCA and conscription. Making them almost FU (only lacking 1 damage by the no chemistry, yes bracer solution) would be broken. These are still 80hp, 10 attack, 1.7 RoF, 6 pierce armor units we’re talking about.
Top tier cavalry, full infantry, and now above average archery range+ good siege lacking siege engineers. They also get all eco upgrades except stone mining. Plus almost FU trash units if they get bracer (since chemistry isn’t that important for skirms as much as bracer is)
The defenses would still be terrible, with no Stone Wall, Masonry (or Architecture), Guard Tower, Arrow Slits (and if I had my way, no Chemistry either), but at least would not be so bad.
Same with navy, which already lacks Cannon Galleon, Dry Dock, Shipwright and Heavy Demo Ship.
No Heavy Camel
They did lose Supplies.
They have no Arbalest or Hand Cannoneer.
They also lack Heavy Scorpion, and without it and HC, they may have trouble with Infantry.
I get all you are saying, but I still think Bracer for Chemistry would be a good trade, for a small buff in Imp.
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