The future of AoE2:DE expansions

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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And how are they made different? An axe thrower? It could have been made Asian easily, A long bowman? There are long bows in Asia as well. A cavalry that gets back up after falling from horse? This can be made Asian as well. A charging cavalry? This can also be made Asian. Where’s the logic that something unique like this can be invented for European but couldn’t have been done for Asians or Africans?

Also I listed you so many Indian unique units that we still don’t have any counterpart in game. Do we have a gauntlet sword unit? Do we have a flexible sword fighter? Do we have a round shield golden armour warrior? Do we have a war hammer cavalry? Do we have a tiger claw unit? Do we have a mace/blunt foot warrior? Do we have Elephant Javeliner or Flail Elephant or Bombard Elephant? Do we have Ballista Towers? Do we have common resource drop off store house building? Do we have fast healing garrison/area effect building? Towers producing sentries. I can go on and on.

About civ bonuses I can say the exact same things. If you can make bonuses for Europeans like “receive half of bonus damage” then the same can be applied for non-Europeans as well. Small castles like Krepost or Donjon? Those exist in Asia as well.

Here is some concepts from an Indian Civ mod for CD version Aoe2: http://ageofrajas.ml/civ1.html

Still lacking ideas on how to make unique non-European civs?

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Do you think medieval armies had only one nationality and were homogeneous? Winged hussars are not medieval there are plenty of other unit types for poland.and yes I know they were originally serbian gussars and the became hussars and later the iconic winged versions.

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Does this apply to all the civis? I doubt that eg celts koreans mesos cumans tatars.

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You clearly don’t know anything about Italy eh? Trust me, even if wikipedia tell you that sicilian is categorized as a dialect of Italian now, it’s just something that was forced during the unification of the peninsula.

An Italian from the north will never understand a word of sicilian, and a sicilian will struggle to understand some of the north sub-langues, like ladino or venetian.

Also, you don’t have to look at the modern borders, otherwise you’ll kill your own argument, since nowadays India is just one country, much as Italy (Italians+sicilians in game) and France (franks+burgundians).

You need to look at the borders of the time, and not necessarily at biggest states with the biggest territories, but as how much of a impact some colture or ethnic leaved a mark on history.

Burgundy was a key player in the 100 years wars, sicilians were a culture that not only brought the byzantine empire to its knees, but also basically jump started the crusades. You remove them, and suddenly you don’t have Saladin or the Lionheart.

As they said thousands of times, the devs look at how much the history is known, or popular, on how much is spread in common knowledge. Otherwise why making the Huns into a civ?

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Pretty sure most people know about other civis out side of europe thanks to this game and eveveryone has interesting stories to tell.

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I’m not denying that, but it seems that a major factor on choosing the a civ is how well know are some of its stories are.

Then of course this isn’t always the rule, sometimes they just wanted to add a civ and choose a story later. But still this was the case for a lot of civs, like huns, burgundians, sicilians, mongols and such…

Then of course overall they just look on how much of a mark those culture leaved on the history.

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Just out of curiosity did the different italian city states speak different languages or different italian dialects

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To be honest burgundians were not necessary at all. No one ever asked for them and everyone was fine with them being covered by franks.
“Oh but they were important…” Yes, they were, but they were already in the game as franks. Following the argument of historical importance we would end up with about 100 civs.

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Absolutely most of the DE civilization choices are perfectly fine as other civilizations. Normns are franks tatars cumans are mongol.only lithuanians added a missing region which should have been called balts.

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tatars and cumans is mongols ? what :smiley:
They are two main Turkish tribes

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Turkic and turkish are different,they are turkic tribes who were under the mongol empire mainly the golden hord.

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A kind of a mix, but there were a lot of different influences.

The fact is, 2 regions close to each other would most likely had different influences, but also some words in common. Like lombardian was influenced by germanic and franks languages, and venetians was influenced by latin, greek and slavic, but they would most likely also influenced each other.

Still, both were incredibly different from sicilian, and it’s still is nowadays. Trust me, I’m from the north Italy, and when I visited Naples (not even sicily) I needed a friend that translated them, because I couldn’t understand a word when they spoke their dialect.

And the thing is mutual, I know people from south Italy that struggle a lot to understand me when I talk in my dialect. We even use different grammatical styles, and this is why the Italian grammar is a pain in the ***, because it sums all different styles of what were once different languages.

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So if we are to have a venice civi they would speak a different language?

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Well, ideally yes, like sicilians and burgundians have.

But even if I’m not an expert, I think that the language that the Italians civ use may be good enough too. In fact, since it’s basically latin, it may suit venetians more than the italians themselves. Considering that it’s also the language used for the bizzantines (which is the biggest influence for the venetians).

This kind sums it up, even if it’s not that accurate:

dialetti
dialetti482×578 17.5 KB

main-qimg-e230581ee7a3859c531265dab7162724
main-qimg-e230581ee7a3859c531265dab7162724602×748 208 KB

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278

No they are made different by tech trees and bonuses, you can’t make a civ different just by giving them a different unique unit every time. And where did I EVER say ANYTHING about unique units? Why the heck do you keep bringing them up?

Also, I checked the “concepts” for Indian civ mod and it was extremely confusing to read. But there were a bunch of copy past bonuses (i.g Rajput team bonus “stables work 20% faster” IS THE HUN TEAM BONUS) That’s what I mean you can’t copy peoples bonus, take them and twist them a bit, yeah, go ahead. Also, another one, lumberjacks work 15% faster? Celt bonus Rajput walls UT? Renamed Chinese UT
Telugu(This one looks ok to me, I can’t remember every single bonus and I don’t wanna go through all the 37 civs to see if it is copying something
Gujarati(one bonus is Galleys +50% los, except that is Japanese team bonus Warships cost -15% Feudal Age, -15% Castle Age, -20% Imperial Age=Viking bonus
Punjabi(Cavalry +20% hit points starting in Feudal Age=Frank bonus)
Nepali(Infantry line +1 armor per Age ?=Malian bonus unless you change it to melee armor)
Assamisi(No buildings required to advance to the next age or to unlock other buildings=Khmer bonus)
Hindustani (capital of hindustan, hub of trade) - All gold income 10% faster=Indians UT renamed)
Gold miners work 20% faster=Turk bonus Team bonus: monastery works 20% faster=Lithuanian team bonus
Balooch(Camel units regenerate=Indian bonus Villagers gather Sheep +25% faster=Briton bonus starts with 1 more vilalger ( 4 total)=Mayan bonus Also, I like the UT camels 30% cheaper and +30 HP? Boy, that’s one spammable beefy camel, lol
Oriya (Start with +3 villagers, -50 wood, -200 food=Chinese bonus Team Bonus: Town Centers support 5 population and +5 LOS=this looks familiar to me, but I may be wrong

Bengali( Fishing Ships 2x hit points; +2P armor; work rate +5% Dark, +10% Feudal, +15% Castle, +20% Imperial Age=Japanese bonus - Trade units cost 50% less gold=Italians UT changed to bonus and renamed

Malayalam Mill, Lumber/Mining Camps cost -50%=Japanese bonus

Deccani Advancing to the next age costs -15%=Italian bonus Villagers move 15% faster=Berber bonus

Sinhaleese Docks fire arrows (like Harbors )=Malay UT turned into a bonus, it is iffy but could be possible if it wasn’t as strong as harbors since its free and starts from the dark age

Philippines he has karambit as the UU we already have Malay Fish Traps provide unlimited food=Malay bonus Advancing to the next age 66% faster=Malay bonus

Mughals guns Gunpowder units cost -20%=Turk bonus mounted units 10% faster moving starting in Feudal Age=Cuman bonus

Siam archery range units +20% HP=Vietnamese bonus Team bonus: Foot archers +1 attack vs. buildings=Mayan bonus

Bihari Villagers cost -10% Dark, -15% Feudal, -20% Castle, -25% Imperial Age=Indian bonus Villagers gather Wood +10% faster=He has this same bonus for another civ previous to this one

Maldives UT1=name ? - villagers are stronger - spanish Supremacy ut=stealing Spanish UT UT2= name? - militia cost no gold=stealing Malay UT villagers build 30% faster=Spanish bonus Fishermen work 20% faster=looks familiar I may be wrong

Gond Lumber Camp upgrades free=Burmese bonus monastery techs cost -50%=Burmese bonus Team bonus: Line of sight is shared with the team starting in the Dark Age=Portuguese Team bonus

Kashmiri Forging, Iron Casting, Blast Furnace free=Magyar bonus Team bonus: scout-line +1 los=just a weaker Mongol team bonus+if they are put on the same team they will have +3 los, which is pretty broken imho Villagers gather Wood +10% faster=third civ he has collecting wood 10% faster

Naga TeamBonus: Scorpions +1 range=Khmer team bonus+ if they did just copy paste civs like this, then you would have scorpions with +2 range if these two civs teamed with eachother

Meanwhile you have the Realms mod which I wish would have more civs but they actually have unique bonuses
5/60 wood, 4/50 food, 0/15 stone generate per minute in Dark/Imperial Age
Monks 20% cheaper in Imperial Age
Azatavrear (Knights and Castle units +1/1 armor);
Nizak (Cavalry +1 damage)
Buildings +2 LOS
Knights cost -10% Castle, -15% Imperial Age
Voivods (Light Cavalry move 5% faster, +0/2 armor)
Hillforts (Towers, Outposts cheaper);
Team Bonus: Knights +2 attack vs gunpowder units
+10 food when completing farms
Monasteries 25% cheaper
Foot Archers have 10/15/20% more health Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age
Archery range techs cost -30%
Mangonels/Onagers +60/90 attack vs buildings
Stockade (Palisades stronger, 3X cost);
Team Bonus: Scorpions +15 attack vs buildings
Archery Ranges -20% cost
+5 Villager hit points for each Age and Town Center technology
Archers, hand cannoneers +1/2 pierce armor Castle/Imperial Age
Spanilé Jízdy (Villagers, Taborites +5 bonus vs. buildings);
Houfnice (Bombard Towers do +10 damage vs rams)
Team Bonus: Barracks -10% cost
Can create cows from town center
Spearmen, skirmishers, and light cavalry are created 25% faster
Knights attack 15/20% faster in Castle/Imperial Age
Cavalry Archers +3 attack vs. spearmen
Pirgos (Castles +3/5/10 armor);
Auxiliaries (Light cavalry gain bonus vs. archers, villagers)
Team Bonus: Skirmishers +1 attack vs. cavalry archers
Dropsites work 2X faster
Blacksmith Techs cost 50% less food
Conscription free
Town Centers +2 attack
Can access up to 3 other unique units(this could either be stupidly broken or super interesting and unique)
Standing Army (Swordsmen, knights, cranequiniers +1/0 armor);
Ordonnance Companies (Other unique units upgrade to elite)
Team Bonus: Unique units cheaper
Infantry (except Eagle Warriors) +1/0 armor Feudal, +1/1 Castle, +2/1 Imperial Age
Repairers work 2X faster
Huacas (Increase building garrison room);
Tlacochtli (Skirmishers move 25% faster, +10 HP)

This guy had the repeat siege move 15% faster on two civs btw

Town Centers spawn 1 villager in Feudal/Castle Age; Town Centers built in Castle/Imperial Age spawn 2 villagers
Archer line benefits double from Bodkin Arrow, Bracer, Chemistry
Archer line -8 train time in Castle Age
Careening Free
Thirisadai (Warships +10% hp);
Wootz Steel (Infantry and cavalry +2 attack)
Team Bonus: Fishing traps hold +200 food
Castles +2000 hp
Farms smaller, -10 cost, -45 food capacity

Cannon Galleons have no minimum range(same thing he has this for 2 civs)

Militia line costs -10 gold, +10 food
Goedendag (Militia line gains +5 anti-cavalry bonus);
Merchants (Trade units +30 hitpoints, markets work faster)
Team Bonus: Dropsites and Markets provide +5 population room
Houses 40% cheaper
Spearman line +1 range
Skirmishers +1/2 attack Castle/Imperial Age
Close Order Drill (Spearmen, Pike Squares +1/1 armor);
Confederacy (Units +5 hp)
Team Bonus: Castles work 15% faster(combined with Berber UT I can see this being stupidly OP)
I only got a little over halfway through the civs in the Realms mod and compare how many unique bonuses and UTs there are compared to the Indian civs mod you shared

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279

Unlike Realms this mod is a total conversion project WIP (replacing civs with new civs). That is why it is re-using some of the bonuses. It is not yet complete so it’s notes are quite messy.

Devs can always do much better job than a modder because they have access to modifying a number of things that are hardcoded in the game engine.

What is your actual stance? Are you against new civs? Or are you against non-european civs?

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Different Dialects(Dialetti) of Italian!

Here you have different dialects of Bengali:

Different dialects of Tamil:

Different dialects of Odia:

Different dialects of Gujarati:

Different dialects of Sinhala:

Every major language around the world has got its dialects. And this is because of historically remaining separated between kingdoms for a long period of time they developed differences. But ethnically and linguistically they are same people.

Do you think we have covered everyone around the world that we are now in the position to divide civilizations based on their dialects? (personally am against this, I would rather like it if they cover people from other parts of world (focusing on the under-represented areas) so that everyone atleast have some civ close to them so that it can be used to represent them, and now we have 5 mediterranean civ variants, you want a sixth mediteranean?)

And as for Italians we have four campaigns based on the little peninsula: Bari, Alaric, Sforza, Hautevilles. You think we need a fifth campaign concentrated on the same region?

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281

You see, this is the point, I’m not saying that this is something that it’s unique for the Italians peninsula only, you said that sicilian is basically an italian dialect and I proved you wrong. That’s it.

How can you say that? An etnicity is the sum of language, religion, customs, culture, and physical differences. In the middle ages, this was the case for the peninsula, until the 1800. The languages were so different that even nowdays an italian from the north can’t understand one from the south, and viceversa.

Sicilians were a mix of longobards, latin, greeks, arabs and lastly normans. The north italy instead had influences of the franks, germans and slavs.

See, I don’t disagree at all with you, I just wanted to correct you on some of your statements. Bacause if you try to strengenth your argument only by belittling other people arguments, or the differences between other civ/cultures, you only strengenth the arguments that other people do against adding new asian civ. Like when someone say that the differences between different slavic cultures are more numerouse and significant that the differences betweend differences between different indian etnicites. It’s understandable that every one see the civs from different PoVs. For example I’m sure that I can’t see as many differences in the indians subcontinent like you, as much as you can’t see the differences in the italians peninsula. So I take your word for the former, and you should take mine for the latter.

Don’t give credit to people that try to tranform it into a race or a competition, just focus on what you know, on designing a balanced, unique and accurate new potential civ, and ignore if people says that their culture should take priority.

In the end, it’s understandable that everyone suggest to add the culture that would like to see the most, but even if some areas of the word are less covered, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t arguments for other european civ that could be add. In the end it’s not up to us…

Alaric have only 2 missions in the peninsula, so I wouldn’t consider it. Otherwise you should consider barbarossa too. And the very reason of why a lot of campaing are situeted there is because it was the heart of the mediterrenean, with a lot of foregin cultures that fought over the control for it.

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282

I think I noticed that, it had an old civ next to the name of the new civ

I hope someday they give us tools to make our own civs, that would be awesome

I would love new civs(but not a buttload) and I’m also not against non-european civs, but I think there are a few more that can be added to Europe(Poles, Swiss, Bohemians are the ones I think would be good) and we can add more African civs, also split up India into 4-5 civs. After that I think anywhere else would be fine to me, but those are the main ones I think they should focus on

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Yes, many people did.
Many asked for Dutch, and this was the only way to get the Low Countries in the game.

I do agree that it was completely unnecessary.