Cav. archers have 1,4 base speed. The mangudaï always had 1,45 base speed and has been brought back in line in the last patch to 1,4 (-0,05).
Heavy cavalry has 1,35 base speed. The leitis has 1,4 base speed… If the mangudaï has seen its speed reduced, then the leitis has to suffer the same fate.
Even if his ridiculously cheap gold cost might suggest otherwise, there’s no way the leitis isn’t heavy cavalry. Without any relics, the leitis beats any non-Lithuanian paladin. The heavily armored Teuton paladin or Slav boyar are even amongst his favorite victims. With a minority of two relics, the leitis also two-shots an arbalest like a huskarl and three-shots a halberdier like a cataphract (a 4-relics Lithuanian paladin can’t even do one of those things).
Leitis are already produced out of a castle and only serve as a niche counter unit against limited quantities of high melee targets. The pierce armor hit makes them a very very niche unit in later phases and it’s far from needing any further harm done to it by the cries of forum posters.
Leitis arent heavy cav though, theyre cheaper than knights and have lower pierce armor, i think its fair to compare them to keshiks and to let them keep their speed.
The point is the leitis is clearly heavy cavalry and therefore its base speed should be 1,35 following the mangudaï precedent.
The leitis and keshik aren’t fighting in the same class. The keshik isn’t heavy cavalry, because it cannot beat any (!) paladin. The leitis is heavy cavalry, because it can beat any (!) paladin (relics dependent only vs own Lithuanian paladins), plus has a massive paladin-like attack (14+4 no matter what).
And pierce resistance can’t be decisive. A keshik isn’t heavy cavalry, yet tanks more arrows than a boyar. The leitis tanks as much arrows as a cataphract and a cataphract is heavy cavalry, as he is wearing a lot of armor. (graphics wise and also game wise if one considers its enormous anti-cavalry armor).
There is absolutely no need to prove the leitis is broken, as that’s not the point. The point is consistency. The leitis is heavy cavalry and thus should move at the usual heavy cavalry speed, because the mangudaï as a cav. archer now moves at the usual cav. archer speed. I’d actually even like to see the speed of the keshik and tarkan been brought in line (either both 1,35 or both 1,4; I have a preference for 1,4 as both are more raiding units).
However, I will bring you a pro who thinks Lithuanians should be nerfed. The Hidden Cup 4 winner Hera thinks Lithuanians should lose the hussar upgrade, which is a waaay bigger nerf than the leitis speed being brought back in line.
(Especially considering most of you apparently prefer to go for the half more gold intensive paladin instead of the leitis; for my part, I prefer without a shadow of a doubt to go leitis and still clearly would post-speed change. Think about it: for pretty much the gold cost of a slow moving arbalest you get a fast moving paladin destroyer!).
Nobody even noticed the mangudaï change in the public update preview, so seriously why make so much fuss? It’s a detail noone unaware of the change will even notice…
Your definition is vague and arbitrarily defined, and as such there is literally nothing to be gained by attempting to argue with you. It is clearly on a pony, anything else you’d like to classify it as is irrelevant and subjective at best.
The unit is not strong enough to warrant a nerf and regardless of your design reasons to want to change the Leitis, the current state of the unit does not warrant it.
No, Leitis has very low PA, they aren’t by any means heavy cavalry.
And if you reduce speed why no go ahead and remove them ftom Liths?? they are very underused now
Which isn’t consistent cuz Liths are cavalry civ and by design persepctive is bad. Even he can propose that but is FE which gives the green light
Is funny how you are soo focused on Leitis where the OP Arambai, Chu Ko Nu and War Wagon with the double castle WW are free to roam
My king criterion to determine heavy cavalry is the raw strength of the unit.
Can the cavalry unit beat a paladin?
Does it have a boyar or paladin-like attack?
Does it have a boyar or paladin-like healthpool?
The leitis answers YES+, YES+ and yes.
I repeat I’d also like to see the keshik and tarkan speed to be brought in line for the sake of consistency.
The proposed leitis change is very, very small. So small noone will notice it if it isn’t revealed in patch notes. I challenge anyone to name ten persons who found out about the mangudaï change (-0,05 speed) before the patch notes revealed it. As far as I saw, neither OrnLu with his extensive search (YT vid), aoezone or reddit found out about it during the puplic update preview program.
Great that small speed nerf is enough to make Boyar, Cataphract and Coustilier really bad units in some situations.
PSA: you just give the idea to increase the speed of Cataphracts and Coustiliers to 1,4 while Boyar is fine being slower due to their armor but the gold cost is way high.
and yet its a nerf to a unit that needs no nerf.
you keep trying to compare it to the mangudai nerf - the Mangudai is literally one of the most seen unique units in the game and most people find it hard to counter.
That’s a solid reply imo. I really like it, as I think it would be the only real answer to why it would be a good idea to not change the leitis in the same spirit as the mangudaï got changed.
Therefore I want to say that I think the leitis is still too good for its gold cost and therefore can safely be brought back in line speed-wise. I however also think that overall Lithuanians are not too strong (so exactly the contrary to what Hera thinks 11), therefore a nerf of any kind isn’t mandatory. (There are some significant tech tree gaps which keep the civ. balanced imo, perhaps most notably the significant - and rare - double lack of siege ram and siege engineers).
With a consistent 1,35 base speed (paladins and paladin-like units), I think the leitis would be a very powerful melee UU (preferable to Lithuanian paladin), but not too strong for its 50g cost considering its castles requirement and okay training time (18 sec).
So I think it would be better for the game if the slightly too fast leitis saw its base speed been brought back in line, but if the change doesn’t happen, it’s not game-breaking. It’s good as it is, the situation could simply be improved upon.
Don’t bother getting into deep discussions around here, they don’t even understand why leitis is not that common for a civ having PALADIN 14+8, created in stables and able to mass since castle age, while the UU is not worth like other civs, in fact 97% of all civs can’t make their uu’s in castle age cause of several factors that these guys even if you explain them those with apples, they will reject everything cause viper and hera aren’t winning tournaments with only leitis.
The stats of the leitis are simply OP, cause of the gold cost and DPS, no other UU has the same treatment, if you need 30 shoots from FU arbs to take down one leitis and leitis can kill an arb with 2 hits and move faster costing just +5 gold than the arb, then clearly you can’t call that a weakness cause there is no one, also the civ has several other options before even needing to got for the UU.
I propose a uu for a new civ that is anti camel lets have it have similar stats as halbs but +15 damage to camels and elephants and - 3 damage against vills. It will be .05 faster then camels. It will be mounted on an emu and carry a Lance. We can call them emu warriors.
