The new forrest prowler

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

So the Forrest Prowler got a nerf and the numbers they used were pretty funny looking so decided to check it out and I think the reason for the funny numbers is they are accounting for something that not a lot of people would ever even notice.

Other reasons include the warchief HP and also the conservative tactics change

So to start off what were the actual changes, cause I think there has been a change in how they have written patch notes that may actually be confusing for non-insane people who check the protoy files like me.

From the notes
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so it looks like a 2.5 HP and a 1 attack nerf

However, these are not changes to the base stats, no no, its the change that you would see if you just open the game, but since the Forrest prowler is a base 2 unit that gets an age 3 shadow tech (and this will be important) the base changes are 25% lower then this

From the Protoy file
image
image

So the base changes are 110 → 108 and 16 ->15.2

Now for the why?
The reason for this I think after messing around with the numbers lies in the Vet tech for native civs, which the forrest prowler gets a shadow tech on.

If you ever notice the Vet level tech for native civs, they give 25% instead of the 20% that Euro civs get.
image

That also applies to the Forrest Prowler and its why their age 3 stats are as such
110x1.25 = 137.5
16x1.25 = 20

So what does this has to do with the nerf?
cause look at the numbers if the Forrest Prowler were to have a +20% vet tech instead of 25% with the old base stats
110x1.20 = 132
16x1.20 = 19.2

Looks familiar?
So the nerf is arguably a way to offset that 5% that they get from the vet tech before.

The second part of this involve the warchief HP aura

This is the old age 3 stats of the Forrest Prowler and lets compare it to a normal vet skirm
image
image

It was comparable, trading 2 atk for 6.5 HP and same kill time
137.5/18 = 7.6
144/20 = 7.2

But I think alot of people always seem to forget the warchief exists, which gives a 10% HP aura scaled to current HP, which gives them 137.5x1.1 = 151.25 (though for some reason it shows up as 152 HP, might be a bug here somewhere)
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the extra HP does allow it to tank one more shot

So what about the new stats?
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so apparently it changes nothing on the kill time
135 / 18 = 7.5
144 / 19 = 7.5

now if anything their kill time are more similar

with the warchief aura?
image
135*1.1 / 18 = 8.25

They will still tank the extra shot

So yeah why this change?

I think its to make the base stats of the Forrest Prowler stat growth more inline with base skirms while still allowing it great benefits when used with the warchief and also account for the addition +10% that conservative tactics now give

thank you for reading through my work procrastination

19 Likes
2

Good analysis. Also don’t forget FP get +2 range, which makes them better than the average skirmisher.

3

As a fervent FP enjoyer, I very much appreciate this deep analysis.

4

I think it is because in a previous patch 1 of the age 2 upgrade cards got changed to also effect forest prowlers when previously it only effected the age 2 units, I think it was a 10% attack and HP card iirc.

2 Likes
5

yeah conservative tactics was changed to know include them

6

Dang. This is a fantastic analysis as makes it clear why the change was made. Well done! :saluting_face:

1 Like
7

If any of these things are the reason why this is balanced this way, it really shouldn’t be. Native civs having stronger military units in age 3 and gaining less benefit in age 4 was clearly part of their original design, and the War Chief aura shouldn’t be reason for a downgrade or else native armies can’t function properly when they’re down or trying to split up their forces to fight on multiple fronts.

2 Likes
8

Tbf out of all warchief auras the Haud one is the most aggrivating for the player playing haud and the opponent.

Basically it ammounts to the : IF Warchief in range, i have absurdly durable units, if warchief not in range i don’t have units remaining.

10

I think the growth is defnitely part of the design but when you look at other haude unit there has always been stat differences that accounts for that growth, same with the warchief aura

I think its why the tomahawk have 19 atk instead of 23, to keep somewhat parity with muskets with the warchief HP aura

150/19 = 7.8
150x1.1/23 =7.1

same ish trend is also visible for the kanya which has
313.5 HP with the aura compared to hussar 320

the musket rider and the FP were just units with outright better stats then the standard and while the musket rider can be argued for with heavier gold cost, the FP had the same cost and it made its age 3 growth stand out a lot more, especially with the conservative tactics change.

edit: also the musket rider also got nerfed twice before this so its argubly part of a slow process

1 Like
11

I still find it quite odd that a native civ for some reason has better riflemen than the british and usa. I’m not very knowledgable on the haudenosaunee so perhaps I’m mistaken but I doubt very much that their riflemen were in fact superior. You’d expect that their tomahawks were better melee fighters or something but otherwise it is odd.

12

they kinda dont?

the sharpshooter has higher base range and more bonus damage against heavy infantry

The ranger has 19 as its base attack in an age 2 unit and also get 22 range after yeoman is sent and also has higher multipliers

edit: if anything the devs have based the development of those 2 units to be similar to the FP

13

Sure both the brit and usa skirms have high range up to 22 and 23 respectively iirc but both have 1 combat card compared to the forest prowler getting 4 + WC aura + extra range in the war hut so it can also reach 22 range.

14

its balanced out by the fact that native civs cant get advanced arsenal and the US can also get buffs from the flag

the end maxed out numbers are pretty comparable

the raw number of cards should not be the benchmark

The ranger have 19 atk as an age 2 base stats means it has monstrous growth, if it has more then 1 combat card it would be OP

like this is its maxed out stats
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FP stats without plaza
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FP with 10 medicine wheel healers on plaza
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the sharpshooter ends up with stats in between the 2 but with a higher range and deals even more bonus against heavy infantry
image

3 Likes
15

Good point, forgot about the AA techs. FP being stuck with 4 speed is also quite important, the others having more range and/or speed allows them to only take favorable fights.
Sharpshooters in age 2 are quite fun for example, you can kite everything all day even with just the 5 from the church as they have 21 range.

16

During the 1600s there were at least a couple wars where the European colonists (due to law) had fewer firearms-per-man than the natives they were warring with. Whether that means superior or inferior or neither idk, still breaks with some of the popular beliefs of today.

1 Like
17

FP is fine since TWC, they are supposed to be a bit stronger due to bad eco, before their musket rider was also strong but nerfed as general goon already. Toma and kanya are already bad status.
If previous patch has “randomly” buffed FP, just revert it.

*War chief is a bonus not handicap.

Aztec is a good example with no unit above average. All units are suck. Their eco is also not good. Btw this is just nagging, can’t change anything even in the future.

1 Like
18

Aztec has amazing units, all of the knights are very strong and very upgradeable, arrow knights are the best anti-artillery in the game, JPK are great even after the nerf same with ERK. Otontin slingers are extremely cost effective same with coyotes. The only unit I’m not a big fan of is the spearmen.

19

Yes, this is correct. During King Philip’s War, the Haudenosaunee were known as excellent marksmen.

Basically only European militia, limited military and the odd hunter would be savvy with muskets. In contrast, all native males considered old enough to be a warrior would almost all know how to shoot plus using muskets with the traditional warfare tactics made them natural guerilla/snipers.

1 Like
20

Good luck fighting canons + musketeers. And Im not talking about 2 canons

1 Like
21

Easy, AK’s have like 30 range and 5x vs artillery what exactly are musks going to do with 12 range? You just kite them all day, also just walk in the chief and whack 5 cannons in 1 hit. Add to that attack dance, 4 upgrade cards for knights etc.

1 Like