The new Portuguese are broken

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

I reckon Feitoria is good ONLY in late Imp on water maps (and you have to get there, Portuguese other than extra HP don’t have the best eco on water), and on Arena (where it’s acceptable but niche).

Feitoria is best on Fortress imo, because you can go to imp much faster. Click up to imperial age immediatly after castle age, with 27-28 vils. Stay on 1 TC and build 6 Feitorias in imp. Then you have only 80 population available, but you can build a ton of bombard towers that don’t cost pop space. It is strong, but is it too strong? Early aggression is somewhat needed against this strategy, but it usually does not happen on Fortress, because you start with towers and castle.

22

Not sure what you exactly mean here but if you do 22+2 which every civ can do with selling their stone the only thing you can do here is monk rush which is indeed quite common and I’d agree it’s a good response to portuguese super early castle drop although they are very good a monks themselves.

Btw a single scout can’t deny a castle drop. And scout build you can’t do with regular 22 or 23+2 with 95% of the civs. A scout build usually goes 26+2 and even if you go 25+2 that’s too late to deny 23+2 castle drop from portuguese.

Well yes that’s what I said in the very same sentence. Btw you can’t scout the strat but obviously you can tell from the uptime. However I don’t think you should go fast feudal scouts but for a delayed feudal scouts approach with like 23 vils up to bait your opponent into forward castle dropping. Still somewhat risky as castling at home will indeed counter that.

Imo it’s fine. Why not have a clownish top civ along with all the top tier arena civs that tend to go for light cav meta?

23

Your build is really really bad if you have reached castle age at 16:23 minutes in a 22+2 build. Like super bad.

Because a 16:23 castle age can be reached even with a 29+2 build. Means u are missing 7 vills somewhere in there.

Which means you play on a really low elo where anyone would fall apart to a castle drop regardless. Which isn’t an issue that is only portuguese related.

So what u are asking is to nerf castles or remove castles from the game or what?

4 Likes
24

10/10 reading comprehension, if you read the next 5 words I wrote “AND on Arena”.

you can’t build 6 Feitorias in Imp from 27 pop, because they cost iirc 350g 350s. Do you play with cheats?

I also doubt that a 27pop Imp is possible to begin with, sure you don’t need to build Siege Shop + University on Fortress so that saves some wood but I think that brings the min amount of vills required to like 35 at best.

25

you can’t build 6 Feitorias in Imp from 27 pop, because they cost iirc 350g 350s. Do you play with cheats?

I also doubt that a 27pop Imp is possible to begin with, sure you don’t need to build Siege Shop + University on Fortress so that saves some wood but I think that brings the min amount of vills required to like 35 at best.

Feitorias cost 250 gold and 250 stone, and you build them one after another, not at the same time. When you click up to imp you send around 40% of your villagers to stone so you have enough in imp, I personally just leave one vil on the remaining farms.

The morley guide actually says you can do it with 26 vils: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYbPkCsvqu0&ab_channel=MorleyGames

But that was before the berry buff. Now you have more wood and need less lumberjacks, and it is probably possibly to do it with even just 25 vils, but it needs more perfection regarding vil distributions.

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26

you still can’t build 6 right off the bat, you build them gradually and they don’t generate THAT many resources, iirc it’s like 8 effective workers in return for 20 pop (which is 100w for houses that you won’t have on 25 vills) and the cost is frontloaded, the first 3-5 min you are effectively repaying the cost of the Feitoria. Regular economy should trump Feitorias and the Imp advantage is mostly Trebs/BBCs which you can snipe provided they aren’t next to the single starting Castle.

Like 25 vills to Imp to me sounds like a bad strat. You send vills to Gold and Stone to make Feitorias, likely you can afford 1 Bombard Cannon, meanwhile due to all the “idle time” going up to Castle/Imp, opponent is on some 40-50 vills hard booming and not scared at all of the 2-3 Bombard Towers you will build.

Sounds like an incredibly bad strat tbh. Generally fast Imp plays are good only if you can make some form of quality push, like 10 Handcannoneers + 1-2 Bombard Cannons… don’t see you making HC from 25 vills.

27

you still can’t build 6 right off the bat, you build them gradually and they don’t generate THAT many resources, iirc it’s like 8 effective workers in return for 20 pop (which is 100w for houses that you won’t have on 25 vills) and the cost is frontloaded

Economic upgardes are also frontloaded cost and you don’t need them with this startegy. Without economic upgardes one Feitoria gives the ressources of around 10 villagers (~4 food, ~2 wood, ~3 gold, ~1 stone).

the first 3-5 min you are effectively repaying the cost of the Feitoria. Regular economy should trump Feitorias and the Imp advantage is mostly Trebs/BBCs which you can snipe provided they aren’t next to the single starting Castle.

You can build 6 Feitorias faster than the opponent can make 60 additional vils. In the morely video he finished the 6th Feitoria at 21:20. And he goes forward with 19 Arbalest and 2 bombard cannons at 27:00. The opponent can have a stronger economy when he has like 120 villagers, so as portuguese you can either attack early in imp or you fortify your base and lean on the long term higher gold and stone income, once the map has no more of these ressources.

Like 25 vills to Imp to me sounds like a bad strat. You send vills to Gold and Stone to make Feitorias, likely you can afford 1 Bombard Cannon, meanwhile due to all the “idle time” going up to Castle/Imp, opponent is on some 40-50 vills hard booming and not scared at all of the 2-3 Bombard Towers you will build.

Morley goes for early aggresion in imp, I go for the fortification attempt, that probably has a weakness early on, but you can end up with like 50-60 bombard towers, and it works good in practise in late game for me. But I m just 1000 elo, and a player with experience against this strategy could do more against it I think.

Sounds like an incredibly bad strat tbh. Generally fast Imp plays are good only if you can make some form of quality push, like 10 Handcannoneers + 1-2 Bombard Cannons… don’t see you making HC from 25 vills.

You underestimate the ressource income from Feitorias. Watch the Morley guide video. 10 Handcanoneers are rather easy to make, because they need not much upgrades.

28

if this is the peak of what this strategy is capable of under IDEAL conditions, it is an incredibly awful strat.

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29

Imo builds like my 30+1+3 pop Castle into fimp Feitoria are more realistic.
You probably want to adjust this build a bit so you can instead of making the castle also just add a few scouts+monk in the migame to at least contest the middle a bit.

That’s what you potentially can make. And thanks to the feitoria it’s viable, especially as the Organ guns don’t need any upgrades.

It’s a clown strat, but we know these strats can work and the feitoria is a building that is very efficient in res production for it’s cost. It’s actually effectively only about half as expensive as if you would try to get the same eco with TCs. The issue ofc is that you first need to get to imp and at some point your pop cap will become an issue.

30

if this is the peak of what this strategy is capable of under IDEAL conditions, it is an incredibly awful strat.

Thats good, because it is reason to nerf Feitorias then. But I don’t think its awful. I played around with Feitorias on other maps like Migration, Islands, Land nomad, Arabia and it wasn’t as good as on Fortress. But I think part of the strength is that it is an unusual startegy and opponents don’t know how to play against it. I have like 70% win rate with this strategy on Fortress, but it might be a balanced startegy.

31

It’s a clown strat, but we know these strats can work and the feitoria is a building that is very efficient in res production for it’s cost. It’s actually effectively only about half as expensive as if you would try to get the same eco with TCs. The issue ofc is that you first need to get to imp and at some point your pop cap will become an issue.

I think the long term solution for the pop space problem are bombard towers, because they don’t cost pop space and have high accuracy with Arquebus and oneshot most units. They are weak against rams and trebs, but your 40-50 high quality military units are enough to protect them to a sufficient degree.

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32

no they won’t be, 3-4 trebs and skirms clear any amount of HC + bombard tower you can do, the strat might work on BF and in some cases on Arena but in a game where you start in Dark Age you just get outboomed and the enemy player does actual military that is universally good like Cavalier etc.

33

no they won’t be, 3-4 trebs and skirms clear any amount of HC + bombard tower you can do, the strat might work on BF and in some cases on Arena but in a game where you start in Dark Age you just get outboomed and the enemy player does actual military that is universally good like Cavalier etc.

Bombard cannons are needed to protect bombard towers from trebs and rams. The opponent will send military under the bombard towers in order to kill the bombard cannons, but this is often costly for the opponent. It can go either way, but I have good experience with this.

I tried this strartegy a couple of times on 1v1 Black forest and Arena, but it didn’t work well. Fortress is a much more open map outside the walls than BF, what I like with this strategy because it is easier to access enemy trebs and to flank in general, and it is possible to expand in different directions more when the opponent pushes. But its maybe just my playstyle.

34

the key to that strategy is imo to play on maps with normal not totally limitited wood sources.

BF and Arena do not qualify.
if you can drag it into imp with atleast 2 relics, walled the map a bit to have space for zour bbt and the enemy doesnt have acces to unlimited wood maps, then it gets rly dangerous for low elo. 100 pop feitoria, 40 pop villager, and 60 pop for bbc+halbs+skirms/HC.

each time they dive to destroy a feitria and you just rebuild it, the salt concetration increases. its glorious and there is nothing like it

35

Sorry I have currently some problems with my eyes and can read way less than I want, try to conclude a lot from the context.

I still don’t like if one single feature of a civ, especially if it’s that kind of, has too much impact on certain scenarios on specific maps. And Arena is one of the most played maps.

To me after the current change it’s probably time to rethink this Feitoria design and change it to something less oppressive on these scenarios.

36

Yes but that response is to hard read your opponent and make feudal age army and what if your opponent is playing standard you cant blame lack of scouting because this is arena.

37

Organ guns need to be reworked, not the berry bonus.

38

Yes definitely and to the people crying OP - do you know the pick stats for tournaments before the buff? RMS Cup 2 - 2 times played out of 125 sets (qualifiers and main event combined), RBW 2 times played out of 147 sets (qualifiers and main event), TTL S1 2 times played out of 131 sets. It was a lower tier civ exclusively picked and used on niche maps like Islands and Nomad.

3 Likes
39

Now on Organ Guns, they def need a nerf:

Organ guns, even before projectile speed buff, were too oppressive on closed maps, double castle organ was even a thing back then, just now that Portuguese got buffed now people pick them way often and then you see more organ guns, but organ guns have been an issue, you can even do the samw double castle build order with Portuguese and is same as oppresive as old arambai.
Best way to nerf the unit is remive one range from non elite so they no longer outrange TCs and mangonels, and perhaps reduce the attack too, so knights can stand a chance and don’t take down buildings as quickly, in compensation give to elite + 1 range, and 1 more PA so theu now scale better in Imperial.

2 Likes
40

They did portuguese fast castle & castle drop, to me once, in arena, with castle age time 14:31 (24+2 villagers).

Still, portuguese had the economy capability, to be able to flood my base with organ guns in no time, non-stop, while even having already spent resources to 5 techs: double-bit axe, horse collar, bow saw, loom, town watch (in chronological order).

Redemption research & monk production (2x monasteries), even though a bit delayed to begin, felt unable to beat the time restrictions, and the demand.