The new Portuguese are broken

Game number 3, even having less score lead and even freaking less villagers but with 5 Feitorias and still having way better eco than Vinchester (Vinch was using Bengalis, a good arena civ) and again another example how broken Organ Guns are, even T90 and Dave were surprised how Nicov could win here, is out of Question, Organ Guns and Feitorias need sizeable changes ASAP.

I must have missed the patch where organ guns were buffed.
Can you please link that to me?

The DOTD update buffed the gunpowder projectile speed.

And that shot took over a year til the impact?

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Organ Guns were quite strong (if not OP) before the DLC but at least was possible to dodge the projectiles, now is very hard (to not say impossible) to dodge projectiles, so Organ Guns became even more oppresive than they were, and double castle organ guns was already a thing before the berry bonus, now that Portuguese have such bonus people is finding out degen strats with Organ Guns and Feitoria, naking the truly OP face of Portuguese on Arena.

Great argument linking a game where one player keeps making light cav vs a large amount of organs. That simply wasn’t the best game from vinch. Btw vinchester didn’t really have a vil lead as one feitoria is equal to 10 vils so in the end they had similar ecos for the most part.

Yeah great strat if you want to throw away a game. Double castle organs never was and still isn’t a viable strat in 1v1. Too slow to make dmg. Opponent goes redemption monks you’re dead. Opponent goes defensive castle you’re dead. And you can’t even hide the strat and pretend to go fast imp because of score.


I wish people who complain about units did bother checking the unit costs, it sounds like people think Organ Guns cost like a Crossbowman or something. When really, once you account for resources, multiple unita trade cost-efficiently vs them.

Portuguese are totally broken. Organ canons are impossible to destroy in big units. If mangonels have 7 range, and organ are also 7, where is the counter? No way. Totally over.

I just made a design for a new Organ Gun.
Instead of firing one volley with a long delay it shoots a lot of projectiles in rapid succession. Due to the attack delay this means they can hardly be microed and are therefore mostly to be seen as a support weapon. They excel against both speamen and Skirmishers and are therfore an ideal composition partner to both archers and Knights
They lose 1 Range in Castle age what allows for more counterplay with other ranged units such as xbows and mangonels.
They receive bonus damage agianst buildings and Archers as compensation for their loss of sheer pierce damage which was before enough to vastly overcome the armor of buildings and Skirmishers.

With this tweak I think I took away all dangerous potential of that unit as it is then indeed only viable as a support cause it can be beaten by all microable powerunits. Knights should directly beat them, Archers can use their Range and CA could permantenly move and therefore make it very hard for the Guns to hit.
With their Gold discount and therefore cheaper main untis Portuguese don’t really need yet one another power unit line. It’s imo totally fine when the Organs only work as a support.

Name Organ Gun Elite Organ Gun
Armor Class Siege Weapon Siege Weapon
Armor Class Unique Unit Unique Unit
Armor Class Gunpowder Unit Gunpowder Unit
Produced at Castle Castle
Production Time 21 s 21 s
Production Cost 80 W, 70 G 80 W, 70 G
HP 60 70
Speed 0.85 0.85
ROF 0.75 0.75
Attack 6 Pierce 9 Pierce
Atk Bonus 2 vs Standard Building 3 vs Standard Building
Atk Bonus 1 vs Ram 2 vs Ram
Atk Bonus 3 vs Archers 4 vs Archers
Range 6 7
Accuracy 50% 50%
Melee Armor 2 2
Pierce Armor 4 6
Benefits from Same as Current Same as Current
Upgrade 45 s 1200 F, 500 G

There has never been such a compelte rework of a uu before to my memory. I am against it.

Instead why not just make non elite organ guns a bit slowly so they cant dodge mangonel so easy. Elite organ guns keep their current movespeed

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As far as I can tell with the current Organ Gun Design the problem isn’t the speed, they are actually rather slow.
The issue is that they can survive one single dircet Mangonel hit and have the same range.

I would rather remove the wood bonus but not rework of OG as the wood bonus does not really fit the theme. Research speed back as civ bonus and give sth new to team bonus.

On point. And also a lot less gold cost.

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If you think organ guns are broken in Castle age, then you guys should see janissary. Or am I missing something?

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I once made a proposal to instead change the Feitoria.
So the Feitoria becomes a single placable building available from Castle age.
This would leave Portuguese with a kinda slow start but a unique Economic option in Castle age.

I still like this idea more than the current wood bonus as it would not only solve the issue with the current Feitorias but at the same time make it a big part of the Portuguese Identity as a whole.

Ofc the Organs only begun to show their strength with the Berry/Wood bonus. As this bonus allows Portuguese to go up at least 1 vill earlier than the others. Jans and Conqs also cost food and are therefore not as easy to spam like the organs.
Lastly Portuguese can survive a not so successfull all-in even more likely than turks or spanish thanks to the Feitoria.
And lastly thanks to their Gold Discount Portuguese already have access to a huge variety of power units including one of the strongest Monk/Siege Pushes in the Gane.They don’t need the Organs in their current state as a “win more” unit.

Organ Guns on their own probably wouldn’t be problematic. It’s really mostly just that in conjecture with the current Portuguese civ design they look a bit overkill for that civ in what they do.
Also imo the design doesn’t makes sense. Organ Guns which only shoot one single bullet that deals full damage every 3.45 seconds? Either let it shoot a salve with all bullets dealing full (but lower than current) damage or in rapid succession.
And this then would open to give a unit that has similar damage output potential like the current Organs to a new civ that otherwise doesn’t has the best Arena play.
We already have 42 civs we don’t need a civ like Portuguese that has such a wide spread of bonusses all applyable to different strats on a single map. Spread it out a bit.
Portuguese already have the cheaper Monks, Siege and Archers. They have their Arquebus UT. And they have the Feitoria. Organ Guns on Top of that are just a bit too much imo.

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If Portuguese are too strong, then nerf the berry bonus.

Organ guns should be maybe weaker against single targets but stronger against large groups of enemys, similar to the Caravel or Arambai.

The Feitoria should be unchanged.

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Berry bonus, Team bonus, gold discount all are potential area to nerf. Nerfing either one should have same result.

I think their gold cost should be increased regardless of civ nerf.

If other areas are nerfed, then we can leave it for the moment.

Orgun Guns should be reworked in a way they are worse in low numbers but scale better when you are able to mass those (Arambai treatment), Onrlu also agreed that that can embrace better the multi-projectile thing.

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I thought you were a “conservative” like me. (Conservative in game balance).

Anyway I prefer OG gold cost 70 (56) → 80 (64) and Portuguese Berry bonus down from 33% to 25%.
Another option is Portuguese gold discount revert to 15% and OG gold cost 70 (56) → 80 (68).

Organ gun aren’t that good in imperial age once heavy cav like paladisn, mass hussar or simply BBC and onagera are around. Many counters that can ruin your very, expensive deadball
Cost change hurts them their too.
I would rather see Castle age stat nerfs

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