Nice…
I played a 1v1 after the patch using Chinese VS French on Mont Pass. I felt pretty good initially, but it turned out to be a disaster.
I managed to wall myself in early and my opponent did not challenge me that much, and I even managed to hit Song and Ming with 2 TC. At that point, I was like, what a noob that guy was.
After some skirmishes, we end with a decisive battle at a relative open place. I have 20+ Grenadier 30+ Spears, 8 Bombards, half of them are clock tower, 2 Nest of Bees (useless). My opponent has 30+ Knights, 5 Mangonels, 6 Culverins (Royal version I guess). This turns out to be one of the most desperated fight I ever took.
He use several knights to do the scouting and using Culverins to snipe my Bombards. I cannot charge in because those Mangonels can one shot half of my army. I also cannot use spread-out formation since if so, knights can charge in and destory my bombards and Grenadier cannot do good DPS due to limited range. So I end with my bombards taking down several front knights, and a couple of Mangonels, but soon most of them sniped down by Culverins. Then my whole army was wiped out by the rest of the Knights and Magonels
Yes, clocktower Bombards still stand a chance to win Culverins one on one, with all Chinese unique upgrads and good line of sight, but not in real battle. Since once you get certain level, ppl not just use canons sitting there shooting each other. They are always on the edge of the range. The increased rate of fire of bombards will be helpful to take down more front knights, but useless against Culverins or even Springalds. Since you need line of sight and you need to move forward to target another one to get in range. You can never reach you max DPS possible.
If Chinese has good Calvery units, they can still charge in to destroy those Mangoels, and then we can have a relative fair fight, or even if I do not want to take the fight, I can retreat and fight for another day. Or, if Chinese has good springald like Rus’ to take on others seige and can be replaced cheep and fast. Now what they have is Fire Lancers, which is just a slow moving horseman without piercing armor, worse version of knights comparing to any other civ, and dozens of different types of infantries that one or two Mango shots away from GG.
Please let me know what you would do to take on such combo of army (Knights+Mango+anti seige) using what you got from Chinese.
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Yuan Palace Guards (maybe mixed with a few spearmen) + NoB 5-10 + 3-5 bombards
Culverin one shot a NoB, two shots for a clocktower one (still one shot for a royal Culverin), but a bombard cannot one shot a brand new Mangonel no matter what, and 3 shots needed to ge a Culverin. A Culverin only need 2 shots to get a bombard (3 for a clocktower one but still 2 if a Royal Culverin)
Against Seige, Culverin > Bombard
Against units, Magonel < NoB, but I am not sure how long they can survive. Magonel can shot and move back, NoB does chuchuchu thing, so easily get picked.
Against Seige, Knights > spears + PG due to the bonus on monted units against seige
Against units, Knights still can take a fight with same res PG(mainly)+Spears, not to mention same pop case.
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Culverin is supposed to counter seige unit, which bombard is not.
So there is nothing wrong for culverin.
In case bombard can counter everything even that unit is supposed to counter bombard, means bombard is OP.
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Don’t worry, everybody. The first results are in! China’s WR so far is doing very well. It’s almost at 40% in >1200 games.
You might be wondering why I picked >1200 and not >1500 or something like that. Well, it’s because the sample size is too small at those ratings. But if you insist
Fear not, though. This thread is full of tactical geniuses who have been telling us again and again how China would still be fine after the patch. I’m sure they’ll show us the way!
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No, I am not saying Culverin is a problem. What I am saying is Chinese has only infantries that themselves are vulnerable to seiges, while Chinese itself has no access to effective anti-seige weapon. Clocktower bombard was the only answer, so they spam them, just because Chinese MUST destory all mangos, then they can fight, otherwise any engagement is pointless.
Its the Chinese bombard we are talking about. With 3 unique upgrades + clocktower its supposed to be extremely powerful.
And yes, its fine if bombards trade wall vs Culverins with max ugprades. HRE MAA max upgraded with 2handed maces + speed also win against Knights. Rus Streltsy have 50 melee attack, more than Knights which was not nerfed for some reason. Rus Horse Archers also outrange most units in Age IV and easily win against Archers. English Longbowmen get up to 120% attack speed in Age 4. 50% from Tower aura and 70% from their unique upgrade. Also Trebuchets just got buffed, another big buff for English lategame.
This is all intentional design. Otherwise it wouldn’t be in the game.
Yes siege used to be oppressive. But Chinese has always lacked behind other civs until Age 4. The Nest of Bees have been bugged since stress test. They were nerfed but never bugfixed. They have been worse Mangonels ever since stress test.
Chinese doesn’t put preassure on the map like HRE, Rus, Delhi. All Chinese does is well is boom and eventually it becomes scary in Age 4. But other civs do the same without being passive before Age 4.
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nerf Abbasid[quote=“MrSinister255, post:122, topic:195715, full:true”]
Hilarious that people are actually uninstalling the game because their favorite civilization received a nerf. Bunch of little babies out there these days it seems. I actually think Relic is doing a great job with the patches and balancing so far. If the winrate for China falls too far, I guarantee you that they will look to buff them in certain respects in the future. Some of you really need to learn to try some new strategies instead of staring at a concrete build order that you never alter.
I’ve been playing Abbasid in MP mostly since I started playing MP games, and I’ve never once complained about them even though I knew they weren’t considered a top tier civ. I enjoy playing as them and do my best to react to my opponents to give me the best shot at winning. Good lord, it’s honestly embarrassing to see some of you throwing temper tantrums like little children.
[/quote]
nerf Abbasid，what do you say？
Yes the game is perfectly balanced, quit whining everything is fine, you need to learn new strategies. .No one cares you played abbasid and enjoyed getting smacked. Stop being a fanboy and face the reality
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People don’t like the truth unfortunately. Your proof will be ignored haha
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People are losing on purpose to lower stats.
They refused to explore new strats, so they loosing.
Have you considered fire lancers or lancers to engage their siege? I don’t see spear or xbows on the enemy comp.
It’s always messy like that, but this could get you rid of his anti siege, which enables your bombards and anti siege for the mangonels.
I’m also not sure about the bombards in that comp at all. It’s intended to be Anti Building, not anti everything it is still currently used. If your focus is to get rid of the mangos, I think springalds or fast units are better because easier to mass. Then you could either pick on culverins or ignore them.
Do you have any proof on that? Because you are clearly lying or denying the reality. Stop embarasing yourself
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FL are absolutely useless now, due to the following two “fun” facts: they move slower than Knights, and they do not have any kind of armor. Usual horseman has 2 piercing armor, sharing same HP with FL but cost much less. Yes Chinese Knights may be helpful to deal with those sieges, but after taking out those sieges, it cannot compete with French knights. Building stables and hitting all those upgrades is another issue at that point.
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they same as in prev patch
FL are absolutely useless since the prev patch, now you happy?
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火骑兵上次调整后就已经没用了，成本太高，正面作战没什么用处，训练太多了正面打不了，训练少了又烧不了攻城器
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China is dead civ now. Only reason why china been nerffed is because the constant threads on forums about it and seems like developers can only see what is posted in here and act according to it without actually taking their action into consideration.
It was WELL known fact for months that china relies on siege units and clockwork tower to be viable civ and even then it was niche because they needed to survive till imperial age and doing so they almost always gave away map control / relic control to opponent.
Gunpowder is supposed to be chinese identity so what is wrong about china making siege heavy army?
Global siege nerf itself would’ve been fine and hurt china most out of all civs, but the targeted nerf to clockwork tower was too much and this leads to china being the worst civ in short history of AOE4.
Many complain in here how china only goes for mass siege but I have not seen single 1v1 game at high elo / pro level where chinese player massed siege only. It was ALWAYS mix of siege + infantry + cavalry / archers etc. Even during my 1300 games of AOE4 I might have seen 20 games where opponent actually went for pure siege set up and this was in 2v2 meaning that individual comp shouldn’t be important as team comp.
Then the fact that developers have said “we don’t want to nerf things”, yet they proceeded butcher of siege completely and they even now talk about more nerfs to siege. Whats the point of having imperial level unit if its only use is to take down walls?
There were many routes for developers to take and they chose to take the worst one.
They could’ve given horses imperial age upgrade which helped them to fight against siege and buff their base torch dmg and see how things evolved from there. For example 20% dmg reduction from siege units + 10 extra torch dmg
Then the decision to take away IO ability to supervise the clockwork tower was final nail in coffin and their reasoning for it was VERY BAD. “we don’t want china to mass siege units” then why can they make siege workshops? They still can mass siege units
Then the fact that only bug developers bothered fixing was the bug that was very slightly beneficial to chinese player, but not the bugs that were harmful ones. NoB is still not functioning properly, IO is still not going to supervise when put to supervising task.
Also devs want to remove one dimensional play and force players to make mix of units. This will never be the case especially for team games. Players will focus creating the strongest army possible and opponent tries to mass counter it. Out of all my chinese games I always saw more frequent mass of french knights, elephants, longbows, HA, Camels etc than I ever saw siege.
Even tho after the pro scouts nerf I started to rely less to imperial level china and go for fast castle aggro china which works well against opponents that are trying to rush or are being caught completely off guard but the moment opponent is equal to my skill level this strat falls of so hard because China has no tools to improve it from there and if you go play greedy and opponent rushes or plays greedy too they either finish you off or they got better castle / imp now which leads china to fall off.
Devs have shown multiple times that they can take it easy with nerfs and see how things evolve (fishing, mongols) etc, but moment there is mass spam on forums about lower elo players failing against unit comp, devs proceed to kill that unit or unit type completely.
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Nobody said it’s the latest patch that rendered FL useless. It could be the previous patch, and the result is that FL is useless with its current stats.
Why are you fervently following every thread and attacking every argument for buffing the Chinese?