The problem with variants. Are them just copy paste or something else? and how it harms both players and the game itself

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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As the title says yes and no, it’s a cheap way of bringing us new content. By reusing the same voices, building models, unit models, animations, and music, they save quite a lot. The problem is that with those very same resources, instead of making (including these 4) 10 variants to date, they could have created 4 or 5 unique ones—properly designed, with their own mechanics, units, buildings, and entirely new music. That was precisely the selling point of Age IV compared to II, and they’ve been undermining it ever since the first variants were released.

Why is this bad both for players and for the game itself?
Let’s break it down:

First, it goes against the core design philosophy of the civilizations: asymmetrical from one another. Even if they share certain units, they have COMPLETELY UNIQUE MODELS, UNITS, BUILDINGS, GAMEPLAY MECHANICS, AND AGE PROGRESSION. This is what gives players a distinct experience from one civ to another.

Second, it harms customer trust, long-term engagement and support. Once players understand what a variant civ is and what it offers compared to a unique one, in most cases it will NEGATIVELY influence their purchase decision.

Third, following from the previous point, the game’s profits and revenue start to decline for the company. By selling only more variants WITHOUT CASUAL, cooperative, or PvE content, RTS players will look elsewhere—to titles that do deliver the experience they want. In other words, this only pushes them toward the competition’s games.

It’s a vicious cycle. The crab walking backwards, presumably with the intention that in the not-so-distant future they’ll justify abandoning the game on the grounds that it “doesn’t sell”—just like they did with Age III.

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Ironically I think it is a matter of first impression.

Ngl. New variants are way better than the ones in Sultan’s Ascend. But the damage had already been made:

  1. TSA variants are so badly thought out and poorly made. They left a bad taste. However one tries to justify them.
  2. Especially when they are compared with the real full civs, their values seem lower.

You see how hard people need to explain to everyone “Templars are de facto new civs not like the old variants” yet they still can hardly sell the idea?

Because the concept of “variants” has already been frown upon. Like good reputations, bad reputations stick too, maybe even longer. And if you need your customers to explain the value, you already lost the battle before it began. A large proportion of people who had bought and played TSA would already decide upon seeing “two variants” “four variants” that “nah that’s meh”. You need tremendous efforts to revert that impression.

Let’s also not ignore the fact that even the Templar don’t qualify as a legit “full civ” beyond the gameplay aspect. No unique building models, voices or music still make them feel less of a “civ”——and the former is in fact one of the big selling points of AOE4 civs compared to AOE2.

While “civ” guarantees better value and quality, and that had been a reputation carefully build up for two decades with endless efforts and increasingly better designs (until 3K shattered it though). It has a natural positive image in advertising, unlike the concept of “variant” which had already shot itself at release.
Though I highly doubt if WE really cherishes this value or would rather kill the golden goose called branding.

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Yeah its a interesting concept and you save money while representing religious and military orders, sub factions and dynasties in the game. The problem is as you said that the damage had already been done with the first 4 variants and their almost identical gameplay from their parents civ.

Knights Templar is the best variant so far and it should be treated as a blueprint or template of how a variant civilization should be

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Why would you think that is the case?

We obviously don’t know, but I would be willing to bet that a new civ costs FAR more than 2x a variant.

It looks like all of these (and the last 2) are very asymmetrical. Including unique mechanics, buildings, and units.

Looks like they are releasing casual PvE content with this expansion. (I think it should have been co-op though).

Personally I thought there’d be a new civ and a couple variants.

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We dont ever know the real reasons behind all of this BS
That is for real!

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Hmm… from what I’ve observed of World’s Edge and their habits, I think they’re not good at true creation—they’re only suited for assembly-line style production. In other words, they don’t have the level of creativity or active thinking needed for original work. All of the current variant “ideas” come from Age of Empires II, III, or IV’s existing factions. They just prefer to copy, split apart, and stitch things together with minor additions or subtractions.

That’s why sometimes we see variants that feel very awkward.

You’ll notice that when they make variants, they tend to lean into so-called “diversity” and “complexity,” making things look flashy. The reason is simple: because variants aren’t genuinely new creations, World’s Edge needs players to see that these factions differ from the main ones—so they force in layers of “variety.” But this isn’t praiseworthy; it’s actually the punishment of working with variants. Continuing down this path just traps World’s Edge’s own thinking even further.

To make a variant, they need to copy and dismantle existing content, then stitch in replacements. Over time this becomes a chaotic patchwork. And patchworks are the hardest to make: you dismantle something, but then there’s a gap to fill. With what? What materials? In what proportions? World’s Edge doesn’t have the clarity of thought to deal with this. So they either strip away too much, or pile on too much. They don’t even have a unified development or operational guideline for the game as a whole.

It’s like cooking a soup. Suppose you’re making seafood soup, and according to the recipe you should add the right ratio of seasonings and seafood to bring out the best flavor. But then your friend tosses in lemon juice, or chocolate, or chicken—and tells you this is a “diverse recipe,” it’s more interesting, more “creative.” Would you accept that?

That’s basically what World’s Edge’s variants are. They’re just endlessly repeating the act of copy-paste, stitching, dismantling, and tweaking. And that stems from their lack of skill and creativity to do original design in the first place.

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Bro mongols and golden horde is literally the same.Same architect and language there is only one thing can do here different unique units and landmarks.Aslong as they did the variant correct way im ok to it.

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Another reminder that both Relic and Forgotten Empires worked on this latest DLC.

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that same lack of creativity is also impacting aoe2 nowadays, half decent charge attack mechanic being spammed on every new unique unit, the not so compatible hero units being pushed recently, things like that
all that had a way of working in 4 as the game was designed with this in mind, aoe2 wasn’t, pushing ideas from other games into a game that wasn’t designed with that in mind is never a recipe for good design imo

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This is good news, but I hope there won’t be any more variants. Repeatedly making this kind of content will create a path dependency for the studio itself.

I don’t know when next year’s DLC will be released, how long it will be delayed, what kind of content it will include, or what shape it will take, but I really hope it won’t be more variants. Once or twice, we can say it expands the thinking and offers more directions and possibilities, but if it happens too many times, I’m afraid the studio itself will get trapped in it.

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I wasn’t praising Age of Empires II, because some of the problems exposed in its recent DLCs might actually be even worse than those of Age of Empires IV.

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ik you weren’t but its important to point out its happening in all games under WE’s wing

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Yes. I have a strong feeling that at least recently, WE directed more and more seemingly “bold” “surprising” “unprecedented” innovations (with increasingly shiny adjectives) just to dodge the true mental labor of creating something really novel and consistent.

Those “innovations” are just like “the first 10 ideas during brainstorming”.

One of the good things they did recently was AOE2’s UU upgrade models. You simply do not draw 40 random new models on your scratch board then send them to production. You need to think about the resemblance as well as distinguishability to their base units, the historical sources, the unique unit silhouette when zoomed out or patched together, etc. A lot of things.
And they didn’t even call it “innovation”. They were surprisingly low-key on that and didn’t adore it with gleaming marketing buzzwords.

And people were more hyped by these models rather than the whole “we just discovered an innovative way to call 3K medieval” bs. That’s like “what are the most popular thing in China? 3K. Just do it”. I can come up with that idea in five seconds, then reject it in one second because it didn’t fit the theme, or spend a whole week thinking about how to organically integrate it into the game (an interactive campaign? An alternate storytelling? A separate mode?)
Yet all they did was simply throw those things onto ranked and call them medieval.
That is not innovation

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The most hilarious thing is these people complaining about variants but still playing as an OTP french or english for 11 seasons and years after years. :joy::hear_no_evil_monkey::hear_no_evil_monkey:

Spamming knights or mangudais everytime the game is broken but calling shit new ways to don’t do it.

Cosmic monkas.

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There are 3 civs that do not have a variant yet. There will be more variants in future DLC. Expecting them not to be there when they’ve been in all 3 of the DLCs is just going to get yourself feeling hurt in the future.

I would hope after having the same experience for 2 years people would adapt their expectations, c’est la vie.

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New variants are way better than the ones in Sultan’s Ascend.

They look nice! I am looking forward to play Macedonia. I prefer new civs over variants though.

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Uhhm no Money is what the company has the most. They are lacking passion, creativity for their own products besides care and support for its own community

The most valuable company has more money than smaller but passionate and careful studios. They simply do not know how to do things well. Their incompetence is proportional inverse to the amount of money they have. They dismantled a very promising studio with one of the best selling Xbox titles. They have cancelled games around and around. How in the sake of God are those good decisions when your platform suffers from great exclusives? They love to shoot their own feet

Same BS is happening with all their Gaming Division. Im sure Xbox is gonna disappear in the short-term or maybe became another Sega. So the company does not care for games anymore. I remember the time when Xbox 360 got released, what a time!

Now, they do not care about Consoles, they do not care about Xbox, they do not care about its own Gaming Division. They do not care about the Age Franchise, They do not care about games, is just business.

So Microsoft being Microsoft now and then!

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Something is happening on head management that even II DE is paying the consequences
Say Three Kingdoms, Victors and Vanquished DLCs, for example

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I always thought it was the reverse case: they do care about their product but lack in having a clear line of communication with the fanbase. One could argue they don’t need to justify their decisions to fans, though it would be nice to have clear expectations.

At the moment their sole commitment has been that there would be a DLC. We just found out what that meant 2 days ago. It would be nice to have an idea of what to expect months in advance, like some kind of roadmap.

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Exaclty!

Expectations were pretty straightforward I must say

But All of this Riot, all of this rant would have reverted if they have done things well in the first place, listen the players, listen the community, have good communication, and give us great quality content, great games and experiences that we would pay for if are worthy enough!