The reason why goths are bad (+buff ideas)

Goths are probably one of the most unortodox civilizations out there if not the first. They’re one of the least used civilization in competitive games (for example 0 uses in NAC3), and according to aoestats, they have a poor winrate around 45%, which was before they got an indirect nerf, supplies introduced. I think nearly everyone agrees they need some kind of buffs. However I disagree with what most people said: giving them supplies. Let me tell why I think so and I’ll also list my ideas on buffing them at the end.

So lets get started: Most people say that Goths are a very strong imperial age civilization but lack early game economy, and thats why they don’t usually get to there. It is clear that they need some kind of early economy bonus, however I’d also say that their late imperial age is also low tier, what this means is they only excel in one small part of the game, early imperial age, which is already a very bad sign. There are many more much better late imperial civs (with paladins or elephants, siege or even archers and infantry), if they once get to have the same production (just build ×2 production buildings) as Goths, they can easily shred them, the Goths will have no chance surviving. The reason why goths are good in the early imperial age, is because then they have a much faster way to increase production by just researching their second UT: perfusion. Basicly they only have that little time period to win, mass the enemy with champions and huskarls, if the enemy can defend, they probably lost. Now, I think their castle age needs to stay weak, since every civilization needs a weaker age, but their late imperial age MUST be buffed but also very carefully so it won’t affect their early imperial age and they won’t become overpowered. Mentioning again, they surely need an early game economy buff also, because that boar hunting bonus can be called nothing. Here I’ll be listing my recommendations and later I’ll explain each of my ideas. I also tried giving them historically accurate and original bonuses, which can dramatically change the meta, but still not make them op.

  1. -Have access to plate mail armor

  2. -Elite Huskarls -2 pierce armor

  3. -Perfusion effect reduced from 100% to 80%

  4. -New civilization bonus: Town Centers are built 50% faster starting in Castle Age

  5. -New civilization bonus: Free loom, villagers have +5hp/age starting from dark age

  6. -New civilization bonus: Population limit is 110% of the normal population limit (replaces +10 population in imperial age)

Have access to plate mail armor
To make their late imperial age stronger this is definitely needed for them. Their units might be cheap, but also very weak, giving them this bonus will make them much stronger, since in imperial age the strength is much more influencing the battles than the cost. Also either this or supplies, giving them both would make them overpowered, and I’d much rather increase their strength than decrease the cost of their units’.

Elite Huskarls -2 pierce armor
Their huskarls against archers are okay now, do not need +2 pierce armor from plate mail armor upgrade. However they’ll need that +1 melee armor agains units that block their path to archers.

Perfusion effect reduced from 100% to 80%
If they get plate mail armor, this technology definitely needs to be nerfed. 100% was too radical anyways, all other production boosting bonuses are much weaker than this.

New civilization bonus: Town Centers are built 50% faster starting in Castle Age
This is meant to be one of the eco bonuses they get, doesn’t affect imperial age by much, boosts their castle age economy by a pretty big amount but still doesn’t make them strong (might need a small nerf).

New civilization bonus: Free loom, villagers have +5hp/age starting from dark age
This is their other economy bonus, much harder to get raided while 1 villager lead in dark age and in feudal age.

New civilization bonus: Population limit is 110% of the normal population limit (replaces +10 population in imperial age)
Their current bonus is negligible, need a new one which isn’t and also balanced in non-200population game.

What are your thoughts? If you spport these ideas maybe devs will listen and make some of these changes real. Also make sure to post your own ideas, and happy discussions!

2 Likes

a lot of nice ideas, although i would rather have cheaper infantry than stronger ones, remember they’re trying to give them flavour by giving them cheap but numerour infantry, they cant be cheap numerous and durable…

look at malay… cheap elephants, but weak… gives em flavour

but you have a lot of nice ideas, devs could always implement the different bonuses in waves,(try just the village hp thing + pop limit or some such) i hate how they love to implement too much at once ie make something OP or UP with too large changes…

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I think goths are good. What beats halbs and housecarls. Halbs beat calvary Housecarls beat everything else. Super spam.

I guess teutonic knights but i mean…they’re teutonic knights.

Besides housecarls are dope, remember skyrim

Nice post, however there is already a topic for this (Request: Make Goths Okay Again) Anyway, here is my take:

Welp, I don’t think it’s the solution since even if they are FU they will still be crushed by the same bonused infantry as they already are. So leaving their infantry tech tree and Perfusion as they are is fine as long as they are buffed elsewhere.

I guess it can work? I mean usually you put tons of vills on TC so it won’t come anywhere as useful as say Brits or Bulgarian

I like this one. However, it should be tied to the TC so that Goths don’t become the new vill fight tryhard civ on Nomads. Also I don’t think it’s a rip-off of Spanish or Incas since it’s both a weaker and free version (and it doesn’t affect attack) so there is definitely some room for it.

It’s indeed common sense by now that a bonus balanced for 75 pop should be updated now.

Welp, the sad truth is that if the lack of eco bonus and stone wall didn’t got you killed before reaching imp, all these good boys will get wrecked by armies of siege, or jaguars, or samurais, or throwing axemen, or Burmese/Jap/Viking/Bulgarian/I’m forgetting some infantry, or Hand cannoneer and so on.

5 Likes

I don’t know if this would be a real buff, but what about being able to recruit infantry from the tc? That way in late game you can put a tc advanced and it would be even more protected. Plus, it helps drush and m@a.
Even so, if barrack it’s no longer available necessary for stables or ranges, it’s an wood bonus as well

I’d say it’s at least mid-tier, sometimes bordering on high, but not the unstoppable powerhouse that some claim. And they are quite weak at every other point in the game.

So…I really don’t get why so many people are advocating for this change, even as they emphasize how much the Goths need to be buffed, or even state that their late game is “low tier”. Honestly, I think it must be a fad; perhaps it was suggested by some popular Aoe2 personality and now everyone’s latching onto it. You even said yourself, earlier in your post, that other civs can just build more production buildings to compensate for the Goths’ speed. Anyway, I’m really not convinced that this tech needs to be nerfed. It’s an idea I’d be open to if the Goths got buffed enough, but it’s far from a foregone conclusion.

Maybe -1. I think a small huskarl buff would be good for Goths, given that supplies helps everyone else counter them more easily.

Old Aztec bonus. Let’s be a little more creative.

I kind of like it. Sort of like a weaker but earlier acting Incas bonus.

-Champs
-Campeones
-Champions
-Elite Two-Handed Swordsmen
-Elite Heavy Long Swordsmen
-Veteran Elite Heavy Men-at-Arms
-Double Veteran Elite Heavy Militia
Civs with good champs already shredded Huskarls/Halbs before DE, and with supplies, they do so much better (and also cost-effectively counter Goth champs). To say nothing of speciality units such as cataphracts, slingers, hand cannons, Jags, Samurai, siege…

I would most likely never use it, because it’s an inferior alternative to something that the Goths are incentivized to do much better in the barracks. Obviously, it would rarely/never be used in early game, due to the need to make villagers/eco upgrades. And why would you use it in the late game, if you can can just drop a barracks for less res that makes units at 2x speed? Creative idea, for sure, but I think Goths, like the Viets, need a bona fide eco bonus.

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Malays have elephants which may be weak compared to other elephants but not compared to other units. Goths don’t have elephants which means their only option is spamming weak units, which is definitely a huge weakness in late imperial age when there is a housecap (that’s why they need a buffed and balanced version of the +10 popluation space bonus), and that’s why need plate mail armor atleast. Look at mayans, they nearly have them same discount, but their archers are FU and they even have a +6 attack bonus vs building for arbalests. They might not have perfusion, but that’d be too strong for ranged units anyways.

Just like others said, there are a lot of options to beat this combo

Good idea, agree with this

You will most likely create villagers not infantry from TC

If they get plate mail armor, and with the help of the new economy bonuses they go for a fast imperial age and then research this tech it might be overpowered. Maybe it should be left unchanged for the first time they get huge buffs, but I’m pretty sure that it should be nerfed atleast to 80%.

They only need buffs versus their counters like you said which they already get from +1 melee armor from plate mail armor. However they are already very good versus archers and +1 pierce armor would mean -50% damage received from archers in the most cases which is a very huge buff. I definitely not agree with this.

I agree, china too need + 1 vill or + 50 food. Look at they are always delay creating vill and bad for early game

Welp looking at the wiki the imperial age units affected by a 1 pierce armor buff would be:
Magyar Heavy Horse archer, Elite Mangudai, Elite Camel Archer (does 2 dmg currently, would do only 1)
Heavy Scorpion (17 pierce after chemistry, so it would go from 7 dmg to 6)
Hand cannoneer, Janissary, Slinger, Conquistador, Organ gun(still really powerful)
War wagon (3—>2)
Basically, Huskarls would only really become better against unique units and some buildings (and since it’s supposed to be anti-building as well that’s good)

It can be get they a updrade full archer line. It make more balances?. / and look china early game 6 vill - 200 food 100 wood -_- what make they can up 2 = other enemy need + 50 food

Im sorry if I was mistaken about that -50% damage, but I’m still not convinced that huskarls need further buffs versus archers or units that do pierce damage, they are already pretty good versus those kind. I think that versus other unique units they’re at a balanced state, and champions are intended to destroy buildings not huskarls.

Huskarls get an innate attack bonus vs buildings, plus their civ bonus and Arson. Add to that their high pierce armor and you’ve got the best building killing infantry alongside Eagles warriors (who themselves have no anti building boost besides Arson) Goths also lack Siege engineers and Siege rams to make up for that. Anyway I think intead of giving them the lst armor upgrade. Goths should receive an actual eco bonus, that 10% pop boost you’ve been talking about and at least 1 pop effective unit that can help when spamming isn’t the answer (like Malay do whith elephants and FU arbalesters

2 Likes

You are noob in aoe right, some thing standard bit dont see you know that.
Huskarl /+10 with all range unit( no sign weapon, monk), + 6 /+10 vs building. But huskarl lose eagle :unamused:. If need buff they need arbalest upgrade. When economy are good for they ok.
And why not mension to china. They get 6 vill but -200f100w. Why not only -150f and 50w.
Mayan, why all civil archer need food and gold for upgrade unique archer, while mayan upgrade by food and wood

Dont understand your mean, we are talking about goth, they best in im but in feu and castle not too much choice for goth. + china unless eco

I agree with this. If they get that pop effective unit they really won’t need plate mail armor. And an eco bonus and that 10% pop boost is also what they should definitely get. The only problem with this is that what exactly is that pop effective unit? If you have a balanced and historically accurate answer for this question, I’m maximally convinced that they do not need that plate mail armor tech and perfusion nerf.

I knew about the archer attack bonus but not about the building attack bonus. Well there are new infos to every player every time about aoe, you shouldn’t call one person noob just because they didn’t know something. I could also start arguing that you are a noob because you want to buff chinese (already a top tier civ, and that bonus gives them a 2 villager lead through dark and feudal), but that’s not my goal. And please stop mentioning chinese and mayans, this post is about the goths. I also have much more ideas about balancing other civs (for example vietnamese or portuguese) but I don’t post them here, make a new discussion if you want to.

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Not call you noob when play :), I mean you dont know all information about every civil

I’ve tried to find something. According to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_and_Vandal_warfare):
Gothic armies were primarily composed of heavy infantry equipped with a shield, spatha or scramasax and the occasional francisca and pike formed in wedge formation, with a supporting heavy cavalry force equipped with lance and sword.[3]

Vandalic armies were primarily composed of heavy cavalry fighting with swords and lances, with an infantry segment armed with swords, spears, bows and shields.[4]

Cavalry mainly took the form of heavy, close combat cavalry backed up by light scouts and horse archers.[ citation needed ] For a Gothic or Vandal nobleman the most common form of armour was a mail shirt, often reaching down to the knees, and an iron or steel helmet, often in a Roman Ridge helm style. Some of the wealthiest warriors may have a worn a lamellar cuirass over mail, and splinted greaves and vambraces on the forearms and forelegs.

Maybe it will sound uninspired and somewhat inaccurate but based on the Vandal part (after all there is no civ to represent them so Goths can fill that hole) they can either receive Paladins (lacking an armor upgrade won’t make them a top tier paladin civ, like Malay aren’t the top elephant civ) or Heavy Horse Archer (however they would 100% need to receive Thumb ring and Parthian tactics as well) A 3rd solution would be to give them a 2nd unique unit I guess (after all they were the only ones to receive a 2nd unique tech in the Conquerors to balance them) I guess it’s also possible to explore how siege-engineer less Siege Onagers can work for them (after all they are contemporary of the Romans who used the irl onagers)

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I really like the idea of giving them paladins. Their late game synergy would be awesome, having a very fast created cheap but kinda weak unit and a slowly created expensive and strong unit (even though their paladins don’t have the last armor - but that shouldn’t change ofc). Champions are a straight counter for halbadiers, mixing them is another good team composition, if the enemy uses archers then go with huskarls instead. I would love to see this new Goth meta, if they get a strong early economy buff with that 110% population bonus and have access to paladins, they would probably be like the Persians: a one sided pretty weak civ turning into a strong, interesting and versatile civ.

SO and CAs can also be an option, but not as good as paladins, because SO might be very good in offense but definitely not a tank which every late game civ needs. CAs are like nah, giving them parthian tactics and thumb ring just for that… I don’t like it. Maybe a 2nd unique unit could also be a good option which could be recruited from the stable, with stats like the boyar, but requires much work and balancing.

So yeah, give 'em paladins and that 2 civ bonus and goths will rise like the khmer!

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Thx for the appreciation :slight_smile: I just realized I wrote that they should receive Heavy cav archer even though they already have it 11. But it is true that thx to Age of King balance HCA without thumb ring are almost never worth it. Speaking of which, Age of King balance is maybe the reason Goths ddn’t receive Paladin. At this time only Persian and Frank Paladins where FU, even Celts and Byzantines had ok Paladins, and infantry turned out to be popular so they might have felt like giving better cav to Goths was unnecessary. With the Conquerors we had 2 new paladin civs… but also 3 no cav civs (unless you’re like me and you waste money on Korean Cavaliers 11) So the unique techs, the pierce armor buff to Champs might have looked enough for Goths to only need Bloodlines+Hussar (so that they are better than Vikings) However adding many more infantry civs reduced their niche by quite alot. And this essay on Goth’s balance history wouldn’t be complete without this question: should they get Treadmill Crane back?

I think they’d be okay without treadmill crane. I only research it if I need to build some forward military buildings. They already have perfusion which boosts the production so I’d rather not give it to them they’re okay without it. Although it might be really interesting opening a new strategy: forward 5-10 villagers build lots of barracks really fast and start spamming infantry insantly and the enemy couldn’t defend it without bringing huge amount of troops there so it would be a kind of distraction tactics. I can actually see them getting it if the economy bonus turns out to be a bit weaker.