Chinese economy is also more difficult to manage. They can have a stronger eco but also fall of behind. They are also horrendously weak to laming. Map generation can shaft you by putting your sheep in an odd spot or give you a super open map that makes you free drush bait.
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LOL stats and pro opinions disagree with you
I donāt see them OP at all, maybe their UU need to increase their cost a little rather than this i donāt see any problem
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I do not like nerfing civs in general, but the one you mention are clearly too strong. I am tired to see the same civs over and overā¦
The UU is clearly OP, but it is what carry the civ in late game. Is sthis enough to let it untouched? Maybe it isā¦
The game is becoming a Frank war, so this makes sense. Not sure of this is exactly what is needed. I would think of just removing the free farm upgrades.
But also your proposal is fine.
That UT is just stupid to cite the Heraās opinion 11.
It makes sense. I think another option would be to remove the archer discount. Ofc, you can make the plumes cheaper to compensate. But +1 vill, lasting longer resources AND cheaper archers is clearly super strong.
This would not nerf their UU, which is the signature, but just making their xbow play boosted by a good eco only.
I think the sheep bonus is fine. Now that they got such a powerful eco, they should loose all the buff they got to make them decent in the past. For instance free TR is no more neededā¦
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Leave both Free Thumb Ring and Parthian Tactics alone, none of those broken the civ.
The sheep bonus is the problem.
Think on the Persians back when they were OP, people blamed Kamandaran and was partly true, but even with the nerfs Persians still were so supreme and was by that 5% workrate on dark age.
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They have 2 UUsā¦ The dorado Eagle is as much a UU as the FU Frank paladin.
But i agree they can lose somethingā¦
I mean even obsidian arrow on top of your list of pros. All stacked into one civā¦ Compared to civs like Korea or Italy 
As much as i would like to see that gone people would have heart attacksā¦
Exactly.
Koreans are a good comparison. It is clear that even if the Mayans loose the cheap archers they will be a superior archer civs thank to the UU, assuming the cost unchanged. Also their eagles are so strong for 1v1ā¦
Italians cannot be compared to any civ imo, since they play with basically no bonuses on land, in addition to only 1 UT. But here the problem is that Italians need a big buff, otherwise all the civs should be nerfed.
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Faster berries and free bloodlines are enough.
Both of these bonuses can be actually useful for some bottom civs if removed from the S civs. Italians are the first candidate, but for instance Spanish with free farm upgrades coulb become pretty solid. Still behind Franks without it, but solid.
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Those ideas sound both weird to me, those bonuses were in the game first and were fine, why remove what didnāt cause problems in the past rather than nerf what causes problems now?
I generally donāt like the idea of Killing civ identity for the sake of the balance. That make civ less unique and unfun.
Chinese donāt have any bonus in other military line and Chu Ko Nu is the selling point of Chinese and they are not Broken and just flattened by Onager. Nerf them to chinese never use Chu Ko Nu and just Arbalester?
Mayans longer lasting resource is just late game focused bonus. Extra food on sheep and boar is not that great bonus as people think. Does Tatars 50% additional food on sheep was considered good bonus before buff?
I agree on Franks but I doubt reduce from 25% to 20% can make any noticeable change. Forager gather late is slow and it is only dark age bonus.
I also agree that Tatars need some adjustment. But their winrate on aoestats disagree that they are really S-tier or even broken. Letās just wait major tournament and see how they play.
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Lol why are Tatars suddenly deemed S tier? They donāt even break 50% winrate at any elo range nor have I seen any extraordinary tournament performance so far, itās too early to call them broken
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Hera and Viper claim that they are now insanely strong, Odette just hate face them (Sheās a very good czech player).
Their drush FC into cav archer or crossbows is so smooth and their boom is probably the best of the best (that one isnāt a problem), but their perfomance on open maps is now extremely strong due to the several powerspikes (Free Thumb Ring and the Hill bonus).
I agree that is very early but the people in general is angry with this civ, hence the hate.
Even the caster Ornlu already warned to all about them, the source:
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Cannot be done,. tehre is no Villager Armour Class.
Itās not like new armor classes arenāt unheard of though, and having one would make sense.
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Not a problem. Can be created. There was no Infantry armor class in AoK alpha version.
My suggestions for Franks and Mayans: both of these civs have an overwhelming number of economy bonuses. 2 pure for both (foragers, farm upgrades, longer lasting resources and extra villager). The other 3 are also economy-military bonuses. Cheaper castles, effectively free Bloodlines and cheaper archers. I think we should change these rather than the pure Economy bonuses, since it wonāt affect the civ playstyle so much.
Also as you mentioned, replacing Obsidian arrows, doing which would mean giving Mayans Champions and Siege Engineers to counter buildings. As in the light of Obsidian arrows, you didnāt speak about the Saracen free Obsidian arrows, which is just as ridiculous as this one, and also affects Cavalry Archers. Probably you didnāt speak of it just because Saracens donāt have a good win rate.
The free Farm upgrades be given to Cumans which also have a lack of bonuses. They are a Cavalry civilization with nothing other than a minor speed bonus without Husbandry.
The Mayans and Ethiopians archer bonus be interchanged. Interchaning is smooth since both are intended archer civilizations and Ethiopians lack on the economy side of play. Replacing Obsidian arrows with something different and weak while giving them Champions and Siege Engineers.
As for the Chinese, they are a weird civilization which everyone knows. The Elite Chu Ko Nu upgrade actually gives them +2 arrows too which is how they get an attack boost and not a visible +1 or +2 attack on their main arrow like usual archer units. It feels like changing something would break them but removing something from the tech tree would also do the same.
To suggest a change: Technologies cost -10% always rather than -0% in Dark, -10% in Feudal, -15% in Castle, -20% in Imperial. This change automatically increases the cost of Rocketry.
As for the Tatars, the 2 sheep bonus be changed to 1 cow/water buffalo which are technically 1.5 sheep. Not to forget the +50% sheep which makes it 1.5 cow/1.5 water buffalo/2.25 sheep as opposed to 3 sheep now.
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Not at all.
Vills are already hyper easy to kill. This is AoE2, not AoE3, you can kill Vills by the dozen near their drop-off sites.
I am convinced that the reason no devs ever did a ābonus damave vs Villagersā uit, is because it would be grossly OP and raid MUCH better than Knights, to the point that it would win games by civ pick.
Knights and Archers already murder Vills by the hundreds, there is no reason to have a unit taht is even more apt at it, otherwise it would likely be the only civ played.
No, I did not speak of it because neither Mayans nor saracens are OP even though they have Siege Archers.
Just make Skirms and you kill both of them.
Man, you just gave a brillian idea for a Swordsmen line buff. Give Long Swordsmen (just Long Swordsmen) +1 or +2 attack vs Civilian units - villagers, trade carts, fishing ships, trade cogs and trade cogs.
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Why?
The only reason why LS cannot murder Vills, is because they cannot get to them fast enough. More damage would actually not change this by much.
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Well as you see Knights with Forging are able to pick off vils in 4 shots. Giving LS +2 vs vils means players will invest in Barracks upgrades rather than Blacksmith attack upgrades, viz Squires and Arson.
Vanilla LS need 5 shots to do the same atm.
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I agree with following:
- Frank forager bonus needing to be turned down
- Mayan obsidian arrows needing rework. Poison Arrows sounds terrible however.
- Keshiks having to cost more, but I think 55 food is enough for start
- small nerf to chinese team bonus, maybe 45 food for farms is enough.
I disagree with following:
- Chinese needing big nerfs. Their lategame is already Chu Ko Nu 1 trick without Hussar or siege engineers. Chu Ko Nu are impossible to micro midfiring even if they shred everything so you can just onager/siege onager/cavalry them down.
- Mayans early economy needing nerfs. I donāt think Mayans are any better archer civ than Britons, Ethiopians or Tatars.
- Tatars sheep bonus needing nerfs
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Agreed. Theyāre still a low dps, castle bottlenecked, melee unit and tatars have no continuous running eco bonus at that point.
Donāt forget this also makes them fire slower. So their dps isnāt improved proportional to +2 dmg vs anything that isnāt a ram, compared to any other UU that just straight up gets a raw dps buff wth elite version.
But i agree they donāt necessarily need a nerf.
Because of this:
Because they donāt have a ton of massive civ bonuses on top of their arrows, like the mayans doā¦ Saracens have a massive hole where the knight line should be, normal priced archers, and the donāt have the uber eagle.
Funny mayans have this thing called an Eagle that absolutely tanks arrows nevermind javelins. So you just keep a few between your archers and the enemy archers and suddenly skirms become much weaker compared to facing any other civ. And the main counter to eagles gets absolutely shredded by the very archers thattare deleting your baseā¦
On top of the fact that the mayan can pound your base from outside of skirm range. Meaning you need to leave your base to counter them. ie if obsidian arrow forced them to move closer it could be countered by skirms easierā¦