Well I’m pretty sure that even if Arambai were nerfed into the ground Burmese players would still go for knights first.
1 Like
My feeling is that some civs have obtained more than what they need. So, Franks were underwhelming with just free upgrades but are too dominant with both free farms and faster food. A balance option could be removing the weakest of the two bonuses.
Ofc, the other solution is nerfing the percentage of the berries.
Similar tatars. If they had been introduced with the super sheep bonus, probably the would have never got free TR.
1 Like
But with FU cavalier, camels, halbs, arbs. With SR, BTTs and a super eco along the game. I am not saying the need a huge nerf, but they have a late game better than several civs even without ckn…
1 Like
Isn’t it a more sensible option to do this first rather than axing whole bonuses? Some people like suggesting removing bonuses or techs, but when even Cuman didn’t got such a harsh nerf (husbandry was removed in exchange of a tweak of the faster cav bonus, redemption was removed in exchange for castle age capped ram) it properly feels ridiculous.
Free TR is what does the most to make the Tatars an actual cav archer civ, wanting this gone is so weird.
That’s good but that’s the kind of late game where you don’t have a “bulldozer unit” you know will spell doom to the enemy. Chu ko nu are good but they can only carry so much and if the enemy civ has siege engineers, or god forbid, SO, you will wish you had Italian late game instead.
2 Likes
It is another option ofc. Leaving top berries is cool for some build orders where for instance you almost start with the mill (tatoh I guess was the one).
Chinese is clearly a civ weak to SO. Halbs + SO is effective and curiously weak late game civs like Italians and Vikings perform better vs that combo thank to their fast moving infantry UUs. Other than that specific scenario (which is not super common in 1v1) Chinese are ofc much superior.
Also the comparison is unfair imo, since Vikings may deserve a weak late game since they eco is top tier, while Italians should get a very large buff to become comparable.
Again, this does not mean that Chinese must be nerfed, the game has been unbalanced for like 10 years, with 5 civs playable. But Chinese are clearly above average in every stage of the game (unless vs SO in 1v1, which is quite rare).
The thing with obsidian arrows, is that it’s very uncommon to be in a situation where they’re op. I know, that Viper game was insane, but remember it was a team game and the circumstances were pretty special (the civs, the way the game played out, and Viper himself).
Another point is that the archer line is very dominant in the current meta. That’s not exactly a problem, but it’s the big reason that makes them more viable to mayans than before, relative to their UU. The longbow situation is much more dire of course.
That said, I agree obsidian arrows need a debuff, but a much tamer one. Just reducing the extra damage will do the trick.
1 Like
It is not so uncommon, but it is uncommon to be in a position where you have both Obsidian Arrows and El Dorado, and the opponent is not making Champions/Cavaliers and Elite Skirmishers in enough numbers to destroy your Gold spending on Eagles and Archers.
Mayans are a very Gold intensive civ. When Gold goes, the Mayans go.
This I disagree with.
??? Italian have BBC and hussar, that’s two clear advantages over Chinese.
Are they? The dark age can go super bad with their difficult to use bonus. Oh and I forgot to mention that not only they are weaker to drushes but they probs can’t drush themselves consistently.
1 Like
The sheep bonus isn’t the problem with Tatars boys. It’s the instant free thumb ring and Parthian Tactics that kicks in right away without even needing to research. Some could even argue that the elevation bonus needs to be taken out of the game but it would ruin identity I understand… I personally have been playing Italians a little more on Arabia 1 v 1 since the latest patch. They don’t need buffs. They have so many options available to them it’s just surviving to the late stages of the game that can be tricky for them. I don’t know if anyone has noticed this but in the past the Genoese was strong was Calvary and that was it. If you look in the tech tree now it says Strong against Infantry and Calvary. They absolutely wreck now and they train stupidly quick out of the castle. Condos don’t need to be teched up to and have a wopping +14 dmg 5 armor 5 pierce fully upgraded. The Italians are fine in my honest opinion. You just really can’t play greedy in the beginning and expect to get away with it. Franks is all I see on the ladder though. Pikemen just aren’t good enough with palisade walls. You lose too much and can’t trade effectively vs that ■■■■■■ civ. Fast castle into knights is the ONLY strategy I seem to ever play against… but yeah…
Why are people even discussing Tatars?
I do not see them in top5 in any ELO bracket, and they have a 49.83% winrate in 1650+.
2 Likes
Well halb + SO is a pretty common composition in arena, map in which chinese really tend to struggle because they have no real answers to that composition. Even regular onager with SE give them a lot of troubles
Why nerf the S-Tier Civs? Just make the F through B Tier Civs better! I’m generally against nerfing and for Boosting weaker Civilizations! I’d rather have all civs be OP than all too weak
1 Like
Because some high level players gained more than 100 ELO playing tatars only 11. This tells how strong they are if managed properly, stats don’t tell the whole story sometimes
1 Like
They gained 100 ELO and people freak out?
EVERYTHING is abusable in the hands of a pro, and another pro will just counter-pick Vietnamese to beat a Tatars playing pro.
1 Like
Yeah man look at Tatar Boy. Dude is a beast ever since that civ got buffed LOL. (Bad Boy) At the highest level of play they do need some work. Viper suggested to remove elevation bonus completely from the game and half the cost of thumb ring/parthian tactics. The sheep isn’t the problem at all. It’s such a instant power spike when they hit castle age and upgrade to x bow
2 Likes
I’m sorry but free parthian tactics is anything but OP. And free TR is basically the Ethiopian bonus with more acuracy but it only kicks in castle age and other civs can get it later eventually. It’s so good for Tatars just because they can use it for CA too. And the elevation bonus has been proven to be kinda mediocre.
Badboy? There is so much drama surrounding this whole ELO climbing deal I don’t think it’s worth bothering with it too much, AoEZone is already there for this 11
Oh Viper is a game designer now?
And what do you think free TR/ free PT are?
3 Likes
Yeah but Chinese have very good light cav, camels halbs, SR, ckns, and are much stronger in the other stages. I mean, fine if we want to say that Chinese do not need a nerf, I can say their are borderline. But even trying to compare them with Italians makes no sense. It is like comparing the worst civ with one of the best.
They are weak to drush (even if they go loom at the start that sometimes helps a lot) bit they have a solid scout opening which compensates a lot. Actually you can easily go militias only if you take the deers.
Opening militias into maa is extremely suggested only vs meso civs, and yeah, I agree that in that scenario you should probably take the deers.
1 Like
Yeah but if a player that was around 60th place start picking only tatars and suddenly becomes top20, probably civ has something to do with that. I know it isn’t the strongest argument ever, but even aoestats win rate isn’t…
Cmon if you check 1v1 arabia winrates, Indians, Teutons and Bulgarians are top10, Burmese perform better than Khmer, Chinese and Aztecs
As far as I remember he’s not the only one, I think repard too climbed a lot with tatars.
Anyway, I don’t think tatars need huge changes, but probably having the possibility of going 22+2 pop FC, start producing out of 3 TCs and get bow sow + heavy plow before placing a single farm is a liiiitle bit too much 11
1 Like
We can agree that changes like only making new TCs spawn sheep (ie.no bonus sheep in feudal) or make only one sheep spawn are more appropriate than just butchering the whole civ because people want to blame bonuses that cause no troubles most of the time.
2 Likes
Power Spikes. Because they are harassing inside your base with archers in fuedal choosing which hill to run back to before making their way to your base by the way… and when castle hits they are still in your base and boom instant free TR. it’s just a little obnoxious that’s all. you could give them 4 sheeps every age. wouldn’t tilt me as much.