My argument is that the Feitoria is a big investment, and does take time for it to pay back. So while you have more resources in a very long term, it’s not really some plop down the Feitoria and 105 the enemy right there.
But I also can’t really dismiss your argument because I too don’t have any stats on how often Feitorias win or lose games either. It’d be interesting to find some way to analyze it.
The person who makes arguments without any substance. It’s like you write things just to derail the thread into pointless arguments with things like
I actually really like your idea! I would even reduce the cost to like 400w 175s because dropping two TCs straight away (after hitting CA) might be hard to pull off. It helps to balance water maps and it also helps the Portuguese with late game Goth-like champ production! Nice!
I wish there was a block feature in this forum. I’m really not interested about your opinion about things. When 1% of people pick a civ and you still argue how good it is to pick them lol. Seriously, I would prefer if me and you just ignored each other in the future.
because people don’t realize how good they really are. their winrates aren’t terrible post nerf, maybe people will realize there is more to the civ then they thought and start playing them. food for thought their playrate wasn’t even that high with trushes. which by the way are still an option for them.
I actually REALLY like the concept mod! Especially the horizontal scorpion scheme for the organ gun is something I’d like to see. Right now Portuguese are supe rsolid on water and kinda boring on land (they can shift a vill here or there with the gold bonus and faster research but that’s very weak compared to other civs) and both these ideas would be very fun to play with in my opinion
i like your point in the analyse that feitorias should not create all the ressource needed to create more feitorias so even if you snipe them ports can just replace them from their gains.
I would completely remove the stone generation, even thought as a well known portuguese fan this would be sad, but it would make so much more sense in game balance. Instead buff the food and gold generation with the lost stone. (Note: this would completely kill fietorias in low elo teamgames thought)
Feitorias on ilands wouldnt be half as bad if ports would not have the arguably best post imp navy acomanying it with 10% HP AND +1 extra armor AND 15% old cost.
remove carracks, turn it into carracks black sword and feitoria on ilands has also been nerfed indircetly too!
I am not ready for losing the wood generation too thought, if possible pelase no, even thought i can see why you think its neceassary, i think the possible infinite wood is its only reason to exist and unless you would make feitorias generate like the equivalent of atleast 15 working vills on food/gold, they are just even more useless after you changed that (your proposal equivalent of 5 food 5 gold would just kill the building in my opinion).
So in total:
Feitorias grant 20 pop spae to prevent housing and allow them to be used in fast imp feitoria boom strateies, which prevously was severly sloweded due to being housed, which caused zero momentum and then outboom by tradiitione vills.
remove stone generation, increase food and gold slightly to compensaete. this forces potugese to buy stone like everybody else to replace lost feitorias, makes sniping them more rewarding and stops tower spamm in ffa.
remove carracks so feitorias post imp navy isnt as strong, so even if infitie wood on ilands isnt solved yet, atleast those ships that can be afforded with it arent additontinaly borderline OP too. Imagine malay with prevous infite food traps had champions too, this is basically what feitoria with portugese ships is like.
New castle age UT carracks balck sword (has historical backing) increase milltia line meele armor, oierce armor ,and attack each by +1. Portugese can then be a decent champion civ in imp with slower, but cheaper and stronger champions (we all know longsword men wont be seen anyway) giving them something more to their total generic land play.
since feitorias would not grant stone anymore we can finally thnik about buff aquebus on bbt tower again and maybe even readd arrowsliths, or grant the castle hp tech which were all not possible out of infiite stone concerns. Also give portugese free BBT after researching chemistry would be an idea, or 25% cheaper BBT itself to keep some of the prevous lame bbt spamm glory but not let it be infinite.
→ Portuguese become a better civ instead of lame civ (less boring and sometimes unfair)
Honestly it would probably be fine if the feitoria didn’t even cost population and only generate food and gold. Sure the generation rate can be debated but if the feitoria would be changed like OP suggested it would be a very late eco bonus. In my opinion it would be totally fine if it worked like this:
Costs 300w 175s
generates food x/s
generates gold x/s
(available in the Castle Age)
Portuguese only have the gold discount which is nice, but falls off vs. other civs that have a proper eco bonus. With the Burgundians having infinite gold with their vineyards I don’t think it’s too far off for a design like this
I see the argument, that it shouldn’t fall of. I wanted to keep as many of the current properties as possible.
I also personally think that it should have a tradeoff in being less effective than vills, but that’s just my personal opinion.
If it doesn’t cost population, then what prevents players in like a long going teamgame to stack up 20 feitorias with bought stone from trade and go 200 millitiary. Sound also very broken.
You can currently in diplo games make a shady deal. Let one player build feitorias, the other keeps converting them ignoring pop cost. He then slings his infitie resources back to the port player which can now stomp everyone with infitie res from infitie feitorias.
They really shoiudlt be convertable in the first place, like castles but this illustrates what could potentially happen if feitorias don’t cost pop
Burgundian atleast are limited by farmers. This feitoria design would be infitinely scalable (until stone becomes virtually unaffordable, but with trade this is far off)
Back on HD I once played a custom game with a data mod that gave all castle the resource Tücke of a feitoria.
We needed up with the hole map covered in castles, and nobody was able to win despite having infitie res. It was fun once but yeah it sucked
I think he took over the idea of ports only building a single feitoria (and converting multiple of them has no further effect).
I like that it can be converted in theory, as a possible momentum shift. But if there is no other solution to the FFA problematic you speak about, they maybe need to make it not convertable.
I reflected the suggestion of Feitoria not costing any pop space,
In this case the Gold production need to be tuned down, in the same manner I explained earlier why I added the additional 1 Gold/Sec production.
This would mean that the Feitoria not costing any Pop space should produce 2 F / s and .7 G / s, as 20 farmers can roughly produce 1.3 G/S if market price is .17.
So either 20 pop space and 2 F + 2 G /s or no pop space and 2 F + .7 G /s.
Of course the initial building cost should be adjusted accordingly.
Otherwise we would have the same prop as atm, as the building possibly leading to a free win when ressources getting scarce and basically no counterstrat available.
With your proposed stats, nobody in their right mind would ever build a feitoria over 2 TCs in early castle age. It takes way too long to pay off and after it does, it leaves you with a way smaller eco advantage compared to just dropping extra TCs.
nope, it pays off after 3-4 mins, which is actually comparable to a vill.
TCs pay of way later, after about 10 minutes (if you correctly estimate the need to place more farms).
And yes, I paid some time in examining this. I startet with the cost of only 1 TC and figured out it would be completely overpowered.
But of course, if the costs are too high, they can easily be adjusted later. I just wanted to start in a way my approximations show that it would be a nice powerspike but not better in the long run than adding 2 TCs. I don’t wanted to make portuguese playing FC into feitoria alll the time, I wanted the players to have to chose if they prefer to have more power soon or later on.
This kind of choose this or that doesn’t work well in AoE.
Source: See Cumans TC and Siege bonuses.
Feitoria is fine as it is, it’s a building that is only situationally useful, but I think the game is full of situationally useful things, so it’s fine.
Reading through this thread, your arguments are quite nonsensical.
You have make strawmans and false implications on MatCauthon3’s solid logic consistently. Aside from being unkind, this type of logic isn’t likely to convince others. If you make a consistent argument that can stand on its own, then that’s a different story.
This, for example:
Mat never said a single thing about removing assets. That was entirely a concept you created, that no-one was arguing about, yet you imply it’s a part of the argument.
The core argument was (and still is) that Portuguese as a whole are a relatively weak civ. Points raised were, Feitoria rebalance is a way to improve their strength, since the math alone rules it out as being a useful option for them in virtually all games.
As a related example, this is a wholly different argument from saying that the Aztec Jaguar Warrior needs a buff because it is never used. Why not remove it? Because it serves it’s purpose, as a deterrent. If a player goes for infantry, the Aztecs can always hard-counter you with the Jaguar Warrior. Aztecs are also a very strong civ, and need no buffs as a whole. Conversely, Feitoria is not a deterrent, nor does it provide any sort of practically useful bonus on open maps, closed maps, or even water maps in any civ matchup in virtually all circumstances except extreme lategame on certain maps. This is a problem, because Portuguese are a weak civilization overall.
This leads to the suggestion of a Feitoria rework to improve the strength of the civ as a whole and increase its use in real games. Is this the right call? I don’t know, but no-one argued for it’s removal, and the reason some want to improve it’s strength specifically isn’t because Feitoria is straight up awful (although it could be argued that it is) - it’s because Portuguese are awful on many
maps.
Well, don’t be too harsh.
There is an argument for letting the feitoria be as it is, cause it is OP in these lategame sits. The logic behind it is, that this design just makes sure there is a clear winner if a stalemate presists too long and the game doesn’t last 3 hours until all ressources are taken away. Also the production of gold and stone helps to close the game if the opponent doesn’t resign.
So Portuguese can be a pick for players who really dislike drawn-out games.
But as we now have burgundians who are even better in closing games they have basically won, I think they are a better pick for this kind of Players. So I don’t think there is any necessity to keep the feitoria as it is in the game.
